OT: true or false: jordan played in a watered down league

[lebomb]

That is why the game is weaker Rogue..........you throw some good centers back into the NBA, and all that driving and slashing to the basket will disappear. Imagine OKC and their high powered offense trying to score against the Knicks, Bulls, or Pistons of the 90's. Are you kidding me? GOOD 7 footers in the middle, and Good 6-10" power forwards cutting off the lanes. Yeah right..... 6-5/6-6 basketball teams. I would love to play this back in the 90's. Ole school would OWN. Imho of course.

[Phillip]

The game itself has changed drastically over the past decade imho. Centers ain't no longer belonging in the center stage, like godfather Riley said, the trend of modern basketball is making up a team of all 6'5 and 6'6 guys. Big-oriented games belonged to the 20th century and the early half of the 2000s but their time is already gone imho

The increase in athleticism, and the increase in defensive strategy is a big reason why big men aren't as popular or as useful as they used to be IMO. Defense wasn't really played very well until real late in the 80s, going into the 90s. As defensive strategy increased, and player athletic ability increased, it made it harder for big men to dominate in the low post like they used to. It's getting to the point that if you can't shoot and handle the ball with any kind of decency, you probably won't succeed very well as a big man.

[AchillesHeel]

a watered down era that featured
Hakeem
Magic
Bird
McHale
Malone
Stockton
Drexler
Dr J
Shaq
Penny
Zo
Payton
Ewing
Robinson
Barkley
Rodman
Isiah
Nique

[Phillip]

That is why the game is weaker Rogue..........you throw some good centers back into the NBA, and all that driving and slashing to the basket will disappear. Imagine OKC and their high powered offense trying to score against the Knicks, Bulls, or Pistons of the 90's. Are you kidding me? GOOD 7 footers in the middle, and Good 6-10" power forwards cutting off the lanes. Yeah right..... 6-5/6-6 basketball teams. I would love to play this back in the 90's. Ole school would OWN. Imho of course.

Goes both ways. The 80s and 90s didn't have to deal with as many exceptional talents out on the perimeter like there are today. The few good perimeter players that were in the league back then, were pretty dominant. There are far more now.

[Rogue]

Small ball still struggles against teams with elite bigs standing in the mid, like Miami who always need 6-7 games to eliminate the Pacers, or 6 games to melt themselves down in front of the 11' mavs. But the trend is going that way anyway... quality bigs are being extinct soon, there will still be big s playing in the league, grabbing rebounds and earning bread for their families that each contain 9-10 kids on average. But you're probably never gonna see any team making offensive plan around a big guy like the Spurs. Bosh was an offense-oriented player like every franchise player back in the toronto days, but he's gradually being transformed into a defensive big in Miami it seems like. Big's duty will be limited to playing D, blocking shots and collecting boards, but you can never write the name of a defensive big like Ben and Daddy TC in the same line with the likes of D-Rob and Dream imho (Bill Russell being an exception though)

[Phillip]

Small ball still struggles against teams with elite bigs standing in the mid, like Miami who always need 6-7 games to eliminate the Pacers, or 6 games to melt themselves down in front of the 11' mavs. But the trend is going that way anyway... quality bigs are being extinct soon, there will still be big s playing in the league, grabbing rebounds and earning bread for their families that each contain 9-10 kids on average. But you're probably never gonna see any team making offensive plan around a big guy like the Spurs. Bosh was an offense-oriented player like every franchise player back in the toronto days, but he's gradually being transformed into a defensive big in Miami it seems like. Big's duty will be limited to playing D, blocking shots and collecting boards, but you can never write the name of a defensive big like Ben and Daddy TC in the same line with the likes of D-Rob and Dream imho (Bill Russell being an exception though)

Sometimes. Small ball sometimes also can give teams with big lineups trouble as well. Like the 06 Mavs beating the 06 Spurs, Or the 07 Warriors beating the 07 Mavs.

I agree that generally, teams with elite bigs will beat small ball teams, but a good small ball team gives those teams more trouble than we think.

[AchillesHeel]

MJ,Bird,Hakeem,Magic,Shaq are all top 10 all-time players, if Jordan is overrated, so are the others. MJ beat Magic in the Finals, he left countless all-time players ringless, Malone and Stockton would both be right there in the top 15 range had they won in 96 and 97, they dominated in the 90s and even in the early 2000s, Malone at 39 was still putting up 20 and 8 a game, Stockton at 39 still put up 13 and 8 with 2 steals, all the greats from MJ's era excelled in the 2000s, especially Kobe, when handchecking became illegal and he put up 35 ppg + many other perimeter player's scoring increased by a huge margin in 05, when rules were changed on D.

If anything, the modern era is pussified and you're not allowed to play physically on D and players get technicals for staring at others.

If anything, the league has gotten worse. Dwight Howard has dominated most of his career and he has 0 post game and can't hit FT's to save his life, guys might be more "athletic", but they're less talented in terms of basketball knowledge and creating their own shot. Pace is slower so the defense seems to be better, but in reality it isn't that much different. The game has evolved and stats are more advanced and injuries that used to be career-ending are now treatable but as far as talent goes it's not there.

[Rogue]

I think the change of rules and the spontanous change of the game itself are just like your two legs (or the pair of crutches for you, Phillip). They're advancing at basically the same pace so the whole can be moving forward steadily and smoothly, and the league also has to make or change those rules in correspondence with the change of the game imho

[monosylab1k]

The league isn't any more watered down as far as talent goes, imho. The influx of international players in the past decade has kept the overall talent level the same. It's just the game itself that's changed. Teams are less physical but more athletic overall than in the past. While true post play is almost nonexistent now, i think perimeter players are far more creative in finding ways to get to the basket.

[monosylab1k]

Also while defense is less physical now, it's also much more sophisticated strategically.

[Phillip]

The league isn't any more watered down as far as talent goes, imho. The influx of international players in the past decade has kept the overall talent level the same. It's just the game itself that's changed. Teams are less physical but more athletic overall than in the past. While true post play is almost nonexistent now, i think perimeter players are far more creative in finding ways to get to the basket.

Also while defense is less physical now, it's also much more sophisticated strategically.

this tbh

[ambchang]

I don't believe in all the rule change hype. Good players find ways to be good no matter what the rule changes are. And people still hand check anyways, so I don't find that to be a very good excuse.

The reason for the increase in swingmen/perimeter players is one reason only - Michael Jordan. Every one of these players grew up watching MJ, and wanting to be just like MJ. Unfortunately, many of them also forget how much importance he placed on fundamentals and hard work in practice. They just saw the highlight reel dunks and the high degree of difficulty shots he was capable of making, and wanted to imitate those things, instead of focusing on what he truly did best, which was playing smart, fundamental basketball predicated on high percentage shots. There is a reason that probably the most similar thing we have gotten to MJ is Kobe, and that is because of his comparable work ethic. Even then, he still never has quite matched up to MJ mentally.

It really isn't a believe or not believe thing, it's actually in the stats. The premier perimeter players of the early 00s (Carter, Iverson and Kobe) all saw a step jump in FGAs and points scored in 00-01 season. Players such as Wade, who was only drafted 5th instead of 2nd or 3rd as he had a suspect perimeter game, benefited greatly from the rule changes, and back in 03, teams still hadn't caught on with the effects and failed to draft him earlier than players like Melo or Bosh (Darko was just a mistake).

As for imitating Jordan, I actually thought it's the other way around. You see a glut of Jordan wannabes, and the league recognized it too. Some of them have real talent, but none of them are Jordan, so they opened up the perimeter and let the perimeter guys score to avoid that mid 90's Knicks/Heat, late 90's/early 00's Spurs grind it down to a halt defense. The league wasn't even secretive about it, they stated explicitly that the rule changes was to open up the offense. The shorter three point line actually made things worse as teams can now crowd the middle easier, so the league went back to the 24'9" line, and they finally found that opening up the perimeter for penetration works the best.

[Leetonidas]

tbh the SG has been pretty watered down in the 2000s, not sure who all these incredible swingmen are. Outside of Kobe, Wade, Carter, and to a lesser extent, Iverson, who are these incredible swingmen? I mean I can think of a lot of decent SGs in the last ten years but not a lot of great ones

[JamStone]

Not sure why some people are listing great players who played in the 1990s. It's still a team game. There are great players in every decade. To me, whether the league is watered down or not relates to the quality of team compe ion in the league, not the amount of talented individual players. There have been plenty of great players who did not play on great teams. But more relevant question is whether there were a number of other great teams during the time. That's more pertinent.

Was the league watered down in Jordan's era? I think maybe a little bit in the first threepeat run, with the age and decline of the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons. And heavy expansion in the mid 90s probably aided in regular season win totals for that second threepeat, but probably didn't really affect the playoff landscape. But Jordan's run is still pretty impressive even if it was in a slightly watered down league. Winning three in a row is no joke. Threepeating twice is pretty ridiculous. There were a few solid teams along the way as well, from the Jazz to the Knicks to the Cavs to Shaq/Penny for a season before Shaq left. Maybe watered down, but it's not like the Bulls were beating St. Margaret's father and daughter recreational Sunday league.

I do agree about today's NBA being watered down too, in a way. Michael Jordan gave birth to isolation basketball as a standard NBA practice. Less emphasis on ball movement and team offense. And then you add the explosion of AAU basketball along with the mid 90s to early 2000s run on high school draftees who all thought they were the next Michael Jordan, even if they were 6'10 and 250, and we began to see a league full of 18-20 year old Jordan wannabes with less refined games and multi-million dollar contracts until they either learned some refinement or washed out of the league. Oh where are you now Darius Miles? There were fewer guys who knew they were role players and played their roles well. Guys like Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen, even Shane Battier were rare breeds, but also have been valuable pieces to championship teams. Everyone wanted to be Michael Jackson. No one wanted to be o.

But we've seen without that Jordan type talent, like a Shaq or a Duncan or a LeBron, it doesn't matter if you have a lot of good talent on the team if they don't know how to play basketball the right way. I think before the influx of 18-19 year old kids in the draft, high lottery picks were not only expected to play and produce right away, but they were expected to immediately make the team significantly better. Now, a team gets a top 5 pick, and they might be back in the lottery the next 2-3 seasons anyway. I think that's part of the reason we've seen teams whose core players are much older can still be legitimate contenders. Spurs and Mavs and Celtics over the last several seasons were hanging right in there with the younger teams. And they probably were the type of teams that were the most compe ive for the Heat.

[ambchang]

All this talk about these superior SG talent of today ... please let me remind you. The best SG today is James Harden, with washed up Kobe and Wade as 2nd and 3rd, depending on who you want to choose first.

Will you choose these guys over Jordan and Drexler?

Even if you reverse it back to the mid 00s, there was Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Carter, and AI (If you count him as a 2 guard).

The 80's / 90's had Jordan, Drexler, Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Lewis, Sidney Moncrief, Rolando Blackman, Glen Rice, Penny Hardaway, and Grant Hill.

Jordan >>>>> Kobe
Drexler >=Wade
Prime Hardaway = T-Mac
Prime Hill >= Carter
AI >= Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway.

[JamStone]

All this talk about these superior SG talent of today ... please let me remind you. The best SG today is James Harden, with washed up Kobe and Wade as 2nd and 3rd, depending on who you want to choose first.

Will you choose these guys over Jordan and Drexler?

Even if you reverse it back to the mid 00s, there was Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Carter, and AI (If you count him as a 2 guard).

The 80's / 90's had Jordan, Drexler, Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Lewis, Sidney Moncrief, Rolando Blackman, Glen Rice, Penny Hardaway, and Grant Hill.

Jordan >>>>> Kobe
Drexler >=Wade
Prime Hardaway = T-Mac
Prime Hill >= Carter
AI >= Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway.

Glen Rice and Grant hill were mainly SFs, unless you want to add LeBron and Durant and Melo to the 2000s list.

And your 80s/90s list is two decades versus less than a decade to your Mid 2000s to current list. Not particularly equal footing you're comparing. Jordan's 2-guard contemporaries in the mid 90s during his championship run were Drexler, Reggie Miller, Penny, Craig Ehlo, John Starks, Dan Majerle, Jeff Hornacek, Vernon Maxwell. You can add the younger SGs during that time like Eddie Jones and Michael Finley.

In the 2000s, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Vince are a pretty strong SG group. They're all old and finished now. But that's pretty strong. And in the mid 2000s, you also had guys like Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Ginobili, pre-injury Brandon Roy. It's only been in the last few seasons that the SG position has gotten extremely weak.

[Phillip]

It really isn't a believe or not believe thing, it's actually in the stats. The premier perimeter players of the early 00s (Carter, Iverson and Kobe) all saw a step jump in FGAs and points scored in 00-01 season. Players such as Wade, who was only drafted 5th instead of 2nd or 3rd as he had a suspect perimeter game, benefited greatly from the rule changes, and back in 03, teams still hadn't caught on with the effects and failed to draft him earlier than players like Melo or Bosh (Darko was just a mistake).

So you are saying that guys like Carter, Iverson, Kobe, Pierce, TMac, Wade, and probably another 10-20 elite perimeter players would have been pretty much average or just above average before the rule changes? You must be joking.

There is no question that it was simply a matter of more talented perimeter players coming into the league that led to increased perimeter play, as opposed to rule changes that are never enforced, like hand checking.

As for imitating Jordan, I actually thought it's the other way around. You see a glut of Jordan wannabes, and the league recognized it too. Some of them have real talent, but none of them are Jordan, so they opened up the perimeter and let the perimeter guys score to avoid that mid 90's Knicks/Heat, late 90's/early 00's Spurs grind it down to a halt defense. The league wasn't even secretive about it, they stated explicitly that the rule changes was to open up the offense. The shorter three point line actually made things worse as teams can now crowd the middle easier, so the league went back to the 24'9" line, and they finally found that opening up the perimeter for penetration works the best.

If opening up the perimeter for penetration was their focus, why do they 1) almost never enforce the hand checking rule, and 2) why did they make a rule change to allow zone defense? If their focus was entirely to help out the perimeter players, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make a rule change to allow a type of defense that is entirely focused on minimizing penetration.

The "rule change" crutch is a load of crap.

[Phillip]

All this talk about these superior SG talent of today ... please let me remind you. The best SG today is James Harden, with washed up Kobe and Wade as 2nd and 3rd, depending on who you want to choose first.

Will you choose these guys over Jordan and Drexler?

Even if you reverse it back to the mid 00s, there was Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Carter, and AI (If you count him as a 2 guard).

The 80's / 90's had Jordan, Drexler, Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Lewis, Sidney Moncrief, Rolando Blackman, Glen Rice, Penny Hardaway, and Grant Hill.

Jordan >>>>> Kobe
Drexler >=Wade
Prime Hardaway = T-Mac
Prime Hill >= Carter
AI >= Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway.

It's not so much about SGs, as opposed to players in general who have great perimeter games. Sure, technically Kevin Durant is a SF, but we all know he plays a SG style. What's funny how you list Grant Hill, yet leave out a guy like Lebron.

I would put guys like Durant, Pierce, Westbrook, Iverson all in that category, even though they aren't technically SGs. They are dominant offensive players who generally work on the perimeter, much like MJ. Although MJ over time started to work much more in the post than the perimeter, playing more of a SF style of play. Even more reason to widen the boundaries of players to include in the discussion.

[Leetonidas]

If we're talking about pure perimeter players then I'd agree the current league is superior to the 90s overall.

[ambchang]

Glen Rice and Grant hill were mainly SFs, unless you want to add LeBron and Durant and Melo to the 2000s list.

And your 80s/90s list is two decades versus less than a decade to your Mid 2000s to current list. Not particularly equal footing you're comparing. Jordan's 2-guard contemporaries in the mid 90s during his championship run were Drexler, Reggie Miller, Penny, Craig Ehlo, John Starks, Dan Majerle, Jeff Hornacek, Vernon Maxwell. You can add the younger SGs during that time like Eddie Jones and Michael Finley.

In the 2000s, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Vince are a pretty strong SG group. They're all old and finished now. But that's pretty strong. And in the mid 2000s, you also had guys like Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Ginobili, pre-injury Brandon Roy. It's only been in the last few seasons that the SG position has gotten extremely weak.

IMHO, a pre-injury Grant Hill measures up to Durant and Melo anyday, but then I would put in Pippen as well.

I put in Rice and Hill because, as much as they were SF, their roles on the team was very much like a SG.

Ray Allen had a little bit of overlap in the Jordan era as well, and is probably comparable to a prime Dumars or a prime Richmond.

Eddie Jones and Finley were about Majerle/Starks level players, maybe slightly better.

Ginobili is about a Reggie Lewis equivalent (one oft-injured, the other died tragically)

Roy and Penny are about the same level (both careers cut short by injuries).

Point is, the perimeter player quality is pretty much even in the two eras. The current crop of two-guards are actually quite weak by comparisons.

[ambchang]

So you are saying that guys like Carter, Iverson, Kobe, Pierce, TMac, Wade, and probably another 10-20 elite perimeter players would have been pretty much average or just above average before the rule changes? You must be joking.

I think average would be stretching it, they would still have been all-stars, but they wouldn't enjoy that sudden step up in the 00-01 season that they saw without the rule changes, and the subsequent sustained improvement in their statistics thereafter.

There is no question that it was simply a matter of more talented perimeter players coming into the league that led to increased perimeter play, as opposed to rule changes that are never enforced, like hand checking.

Hand checking was enforced. Players like Mario Elie and Jaren Jackson were deemed useless after the hand-checking rule because they could no longer guard anyone with their slow foot-speeds.

If opening up the perimeter for penetration was their focus, why do they 1) almost never enforce the hand checking rule, and 2) why did they make a rule change to allow zone defense? If their focus was entirely to help out the perimeter players, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make a rule change to allow a type of defense that is entirely focused on minimizing penetration.

The "rule change" crutch is a load of crap.

I am not sure why you would kept saying the hand checking rule was not enforced. It was more definitely stricter than the 90s, when players were grabbed and held constantly. As for the zone defense rules, it's not been overly effective, and actually allows teams to take out a big man on defense which allows small ball and high octane offense.

It's not so much about SGs, as opposed to players in general who have great perimeter games. Sure, technically Kevin Durant is a SF, but we all know he plays a SG style. What's funny how you list Grant Hill, yet leave out a guy like Lebron.

I would put guys like Durant, Pierce, Westbrook, Iverson all in that category, even though they aren't technically SGs. They are dominant offensive players who generally work on the perimeter, much like MJ. Although MJ over time started to work much more in the post than the perimeter, playing more of a SF style of play. Even more reason to widen the boundaries of players to include in the discussion.

I actually agree wit this, but I avoided another huge can of worms. Guys in the late 80s early 90s that fit in this mold includes Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Isiah Thomas, Pippen, Payton, and Mullin, maybe even Mark Price.

[RsxPiimp]

Probably the best or only good basketball conversation we had in the forum in a while. Good stuff peeps.

[Phillip]

Hand checking was enforced. Players like Mario Elie and Jaren Jackson were deemed useless after the hand-checking rule because they could no longer guard anyone with their slow foot-speeds.

I am not sure why you would kept saying the hand checking rule was not enforced. It was more definitely stricter than the 90s, when players were grabbed and held constantly.

Okay, it was "enforced" for what, a year or two? Same as the "no tolerance" rules for complaining about officiating.

People handcheck, grab, hold, and all kinds of stuff today just as they used to. They are just better at hiding it, but make no mistake, the same stuff is done. Almost any time someone drives, the defender has a hand at their hip, holding them back from running past them nearly as fast. They just don't do it as obviously as in the past.

As for the zone defense rules, it's not been overly effective, and actually allows teams to take out a big man on defense which allows small ball and high octane offense.

Not overly effective? I'd say the fact that the zone defense is arguably the single biggest reason that the Mavs have been the only team to beat the Heat in a playoff series since they acquired Lebron shows just how effective it can be when used properly. The problem isn't so much with zone defense itself, as opposed to the fact that most teams aren't built to utilize a zone defense very well, so coaches don't spend time developing strategies to use one. I wouldn't say it should be a primary means of defense, but when used at the right times, it can completely change a game up. The Mavs for several years under Carlisle were able to completely change the flow of a game with just a small 3-5 minute spurt of zone defense, and was a huge reason for their success (prior to blowing up the team).

I actually agree wit this, but I avoided another huge can of worms. Guys in the late 80s early 90s that fit in this mold includes Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Isiah Thomas, Pippen, Payton, and Mullin, maybe even Mark Price.

Then that opens up for Lebron, Carmello, Pierce, Durant, Westbrook, Iverson,

[ambchang]

Okay, it was "enforced" for what, a year or two? Same as the "no tolerance" rules for complaining about officiating.

People handcheck, grab, hold, and all kinds of stuff today just as they used to. They are just better at hiding it, but make no mistake, the same stuff is done. Almost any time someone drives, the defender has a hand at their hip, holding them back from running past them nearly as fast. They just don't do it as obviously as in the past.

It is most definitely done, but not to the extent of mid/late 90s basketball. The reason scoring was so bad during that era was because defense was allowed to do things that makes it unbelievably difficult to score, and all of that perimeter defense was part of the reason.

Not overly effective? I'd say the fact that the zone defense is arguably the single biggest reason that the Mavs have been the only team to beat the Heat in a playoff series since they acquired Lebron shows just how effective it can be when used properly. The problem isn't so much with zone defense itself, as opposed to the fact that most teams aren't built to utilize a zone defense very well, so coaches don't spend time developing strategies to use one. I wouldn't say it should be a primary means of defense, but when used at the right times, it can completely change a game up. The Mavs for several years under Carlisle were able to completely change the flow of a game with just a small 3-5 minute spurt of zone defense, and was a huge reason for their success (prior to blowing up the team).

Agreed. Most teams not using it means that it's not been overly effective (I mean the implementation of the rule to the expected outcome). Teams generally do not stick together long enough, and the players have the team-first mentality to use a zone defense correctly. I know because the Spurs use zone all the time as well, but the effects on the league has not been that great overall.

It still stands that zone defense allows teams to take a lumbering big man off the floor and still run a somewhat decent defense, allowing small ball offense on the other end of the court. Pop has been forced to play the small ball line up many times with mixed results, and the change into a perimeter friendly offense is one the reasons the Spurs have moved towards an offensive team vs. a defensive team.

Then that opens up for Lebron, Carmello, Pierce, Durant, Westbrook, Iverson,

Yes, and they would still be comparable to 80s/90s talent.

[Brazil]

an actual basketball discussion in the nba forum ? wtf ?

good read