Lakers: The almost irreplaceable Pau

[Killakobe81]

And even though diminished Duncan still had a hof center and future hof SG in 2005

[ambchang]

Of course, Amb we have a dearth of quality bigs so that is. Pretty obvious, but yet in 2007 it was Parker, not any of the other players who torched a good Cavs defense.

Which of course, is why the Lakers won those championships and made the finals another one time, it's because of their incredibly versatile front line that is heads and shoulders above anybody else in the league. The Spurs had to go through backcourts that were equally, or nearly, as strong as theirs. Parker benefitted from facing off against Boobie Gibson and Mo Williams, which was the right way to play, but the Spurs had to go through tough backcourts that are just as good as theirs to make the Finals in the first place.

The Lakers didn't have to go through any front courts that were close to as good as theirs, because there simply wasn't any.

And even though diminished Duncan still had a hof center and future hof SG in 2005

Manu was dynamite in 05, but are you trying to tell me Nazr was HOF material? Or did you mean Horry? I am not buying either.

BTW, HoF name doesn't mean too much so as long as they are not playing in/close to their primes.

[spurraider21]

That's why I listed those players. Please tell me which from that list of people would replace Parker in 2007, and the Spurs would not have won the le?
There are some arguable ones for sure, but I am pretty confident that the Parker replaceable list is certainly a lot longer than the Pau replaceable list.

I'm not arguing with your conclusion. But the reason people are getting on your case is because you are just spitting out win share figures as an and-all-be-all level of analysis

[ambchang]

I'm not arguing with your conclusion. But the reason people are getting on your case is because you are just spitting out win share figures as an and-all-be-all level of analysis

Nothing is be all and end all, but it is a very reflective stat.

For example, every single leader of a championship team has led his team in WS in the last 25 years.
For example, the 20 players with the top WS seasons since 1976 (post ABA), listed in descending order, are:
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. David Robinson
4. Kevin Durant
5. Shaq
6. Garnett
7. CP3
8. KAJ
9. Duncan
10. Dirk
11. Barkley
12. Malone
13. Magic
14. T-Mac
15. Bird
16. Hakeem
17. Stockton
18. Billups
19. Moses
20. Kobe

[spurraider21]

Nothing is be all and end all, but it is a very reflective stat.

For example, every single leader of a championship team has led his team in WS in the last 25 years.
For example, the 20 players with the top WS seasons since 1976 (post ABA), listed in descending order, are:
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. David Robinson
4. Kevin Durant
5. Shaq
6. Garnett
7. CP3
8. KAJ
9. Duncan
10. Dirk
11. Barkley
12. Malone
13. Magic
14. T-Mac
15. Bird
16. Hakeem
17. Stockton
18. Billups
19. Moses
20. Kobe

its hard for me to believe that chauncey in his best year was responsible for more wins than kobe in his best year

[ambchang]

its hard for me to believe that chauncey in his best year was responsible for more wins than kobe in his best year

Chauncey was very good with the Pistons with both Brown and Saunders. The reason he was so good was because he was pretty much the only playmaker on the Pistons (Rasheed could have been, but just decided to take a back seat his entire career for reasons unknown). When Chauncey wasn't on the floor, the entire Pistons offense runs to a stand still. Regardless, it was really a flash in the pan couple of seasons for Chauncey, and once he was removed from that environment, he was proven to be good, but not great.

[Killakobe81]

Nothing is be all and end all, but it is a very reflective stat.

For example, every single leader of a championship team has led his team in WS in the last 25 years.
For example, the 20 players with the top WS seasons since 1976 (post ABA), listed in descending order, are:
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. David Robinson
4. Kevin Durant
5. Shaq
6. Garnett
7. CP3
8. KAJ
9. Duncan
10. Dirk
11. Barkley
12. Malone
13. Magic
14. T-Mac
15. Bird
16. Hakeem
17. Stockton
18. Billups
19. Moses
20. Kobe

If you can't see the fault in a list that places David (who I like) 3rd over Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Bird well I will never debate hoops with you again. Winshares ...lmao.

[TDMVPDPOY]

WS

remove the one man teams....

[ambchang]

If you can't see the fault in a list that places David (who I like) 3rd over Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Bird well I will never debate hoops with you again. Winshares ...lmao.

David Robinson is pretty much a casualty of his own success. If he actually sucked in his prime a little more, management would have been under more pressure to bring in some decent help outside of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson. Do I think Robinson > KAJ, Duncan, Magic and Bird, absolutely not. Could he have been? Yes, with the right team, he could be very successful. Put him on a team in place of Dirk Nowitzki on the 06 to 11 Mavs, the Mavs would have won at least 1 championship, perhaps two.

As for Magic and Bird, the game admittedly, is different back in the 80s. Talent was way more concentrated on a few teams, and a team can only win so many games, so the WS are split between the players. When a Bird or Magic is not on the floor on their respective teams, they don't suffer as much, because there are the Worthys, McHales, Parishes and KAJs to keep the game close.

KAJ on the other hand, had his prime prior to 77. As much as Laker fans like to say he was the best Laker ever, his prime years were with the Bucks.

[Killakobe81]

David Robinson is pretty much a casualty of his own success. If he actually sucked in his prime a little more, management would have been under more pressure to bring in some decent help outside of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson. Do I think Robinson > KAJ, Duncan, Magic and Bird, absolutely not. Could he have been? Yes, with the right team, he could be very successful. Put him on a team in place of Dirk Nowitzki on the 06 to 11 Mavs, the Mavs would have won at least 1 championship, perhaps two.

As for Magic and Bird, the game admittedly, is different back in the 80s. Talent was way more concentrated on a few teams, and a team can only win so many games, so the WS are split between the players. When a Bird or Magic is not on the floor on their respective teams, they don't suffer as much, because there are the Worthys, McHales, Parishes and KAJs to keep the game close.

KAJ on the other hand, had his prime prior to 77. As much as Laker fans like to say he was the best Laker ever, his prime years were with the Bucks.

agree with most if what you said but win shares are helpful in determining MVP awards but can not replace watching the game. Magic and Bird had great teammates but the les didnt flow until they arrived ...for those 80's teams ... Neither were great defenders but both were so smart they were great help defenders and extremely clutch rebounders. In fact if a key board was needed I would want Bird and Magic securing over McHale, Parish, Kareem, Green or Rambis. And yes I missed Kareem's prime.

[ambchang]

agree with most if what you said but win shares are helpful in determining MVP awards but can not replace watching the game. Magic and Bird had great teammates but the les didnt flow until they arrived ...for those 80's teams ... Neither were great defenders but both were so smart they were great help defenders and extremely clutch rebounders. In fact if a key board was needed I would want Bird and Magic securing over McHale, Parish, Kareem, Green or Rambis. And yes I missed Kareem's prime.

Watching the game is always the best, ws is merely a statistical way of explaining certain things other than "I think he is better".

As for bird and magic, both had stronger teams as their career progressed. Mchale and parish after birds rookie year. So did Dennis Johnson. Scott and worthy joined after magic. Sure magic won in his rookie year, but no way would the lakers have been such a dynasty without them.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Since June 17, 2010 Spurfan has still not accepted the fact that Kobe 5 > Duncan 4. But don't worry, it will come one day.

[ambchang]

Since 2004, Kobe fans still haven't accepted Kobe is a second banana.

Kobe clutch

[Killakobe81]

Duncan was very clutch in these past Finals ...Duncan played well but failed to finish MJ, Magic and Bird all had unclutch moments ...it happens.

[AchillesHeel]

Duncan was very clutch in these past Finals ...Duncan played well but failed to finish MJ, Magic and Bird all had unclutch moments ...it happens.

Thank you.