Rockets: 08 Rockets vs. 02 Lakers

[ambchang]

Just read a very well reasoned article by Bill Simmons

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ate-tale-t-mac

Player A: 28.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.3 apg, 43.4 mpg, 45-33-81%, 22.6 FGA, 8.3 FTA, 22.5 PER, 31.1 usage

Player B: 29.5 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.5 apg, 42.6 mpg, 43-30-75%, 24.5 FGA, 9.1 FTA, 25.4 PER, 35.3 usage

You probably figured out that Player B was Kobe. Wrong. It was T-Mac. Those 35 playoff games became part of his legacy, for better or worse — superduperstar numbers for someone who obviously couldn't be a superduperstar because (hold on, I'm grabbing my sports radio voice) let's be honest, folks, superduperstars should make the second round! We judge these guys by playoff wins first and everything else second. Most of the time, it's totally fair. In T-Mac's case, it's not totally fair. Kobe had Shaq and Phil, and later Gasol and Odom, with a slew of Horrys and Fishers and Rices mixed in. T-Mac's best teammates were Yao Ming, Grant Hill (played 46 games in four years with McGrady), Mike Miller, a washed-up Dikembe Mutombo, a really washed-up Patrick Ewing, and a really, really, really washed-up Shawn Kemp.

Remember when we kinda sorta felt bad for Kobe after he drove Shaq out of Los Angeles, when the Black Mamba was saddled with the Kwame Browns and Smush Parkers for a couple of years before Pau Gasol miraculously arrived? Here's a complete list of every teammate who started a playoff game with Tracy McGrady during his aforementioned 2001-08 peak …

and it got me thinking, what would happen if a totally healthy 08 Rockets were to face off the 02 Lakers in a fairly called series?

On the surface, you may think, "What kind of comparison is that, one team won the championship, the other missed the first round!" But do consider the following:
- 02 Lakers was running on fumes, and it required 6 for them to get past the Kings
- 08 Rockets lost Yao (again) and T-Mac for significant time for the season. With Yao and McGrady running on all cylinders, they were able to rip off 22 straight wins.

Just looking at the lineups:

Shaq >> Yao
Kobe <= TMac
George < Battier
Fox = Scola
Fisher > Alston

LA Bench < Houston Bench

the lineups are basically a wash other than Shaq being much better than Yao. Additionally, we all know that KFC >>>>> Adelman despite Adelman being a pretty good coach.

So the conclusion is, 02 Lakers will likely win in pretty convincing fashion, thanks to Shaq and KFC once again.

[AchillesHeel]

Again, no one cares about the woulda-shouldas, we should have won the 2013 le but the unthinkable happened. It just is what it is. T-Mac had a career and he'll be forgotten like Elgin Baylor, both had their careers cut short due to injuries, both were deadly scorers with great offensive arsenal.

You can't use injuries as excuses. We all know we would have won this year had TP not been injured for the Final 2 games but no one cares. A fully healthy 2013 Lakers squad would have at least made it to the 2nd round as a 3-5 seed.

But facts are facts, T-Mac will be forever known as a skilled player who never won , just like Elgin Baylor (despite Baylor dropping 70+ pts in games and dominating his era, 0 les = no one will care for you that much). Baylor even went to 8 Finals and managed to lose every single one of them. No one cares that the Celtics dominated the Lakers in the 60s, you don't win = you will not be remembered and a guy less skilled than you with multiple les will be regarded as the better player.

You have to win to be an all-time great. Duncan won, Shaq won, even Kirby won and I'd say he deserved the 2009 FMVP but the team they faced was average at best so Pau didn't really need to dominate in order for Lakers to win.

Iverson atleast made it to the Finals though thanks to the advanced stats people realize how inefficient he was and he isn't regarded as highly by fans because of that.

[ambchang]

I understand your POV, AH, and it is a popular view held by man. I can't blame you for it, and in some ways, it could be considered the correct view.

But the point is, players are being evaluated on things that are out of their control. Injuries to your teammates, management, teammates, opposition, matchups in the playoffs are all extremely important elements to the success of a team. Players are, fairly or unfairly, evaluated with these factors not being taken into account. Could T-Mac have developed a mean streak and demanded better teammates, sure? Could he have decided whether Yao got injured? No. And yet he was being evaluated as a single player based on team accomplishments.

[AchillesHeel]

I get where you're coming from and of course T-Mac was a great player and individually prime T-Mac was just as good and I'd even say better than Kirby but again he has no accolades to back up such claim.

Many players get injured and miss out on possible les and big playoff moments. It's just the way it is. If D-Rob didn't get injured we wouldn't have gotten a player like Duncan. Long term speaking D-Rob's injury back in 96 was a good thing for the Spurs future. Injuries are a part of the game and they happen to everybody. Even Kirby tore his achilles this year after having a long career without any significant injuries. AP tore his ACL and still came back and rushed over 2,000 yds and was 8 yds short from breaking the record.

You may feel sorry for the guy but that's all you can really do.

[RsxPiimp]

2002 kobe would decimate 2008 tmac

[RsxPiimp]

I understand your POV, AH, and it is a popular view held by man. I can't blame you for it, and in some ways, it could be considered the correct view.

But the point is, players are being evaluated on things that are out of their control. Injuries to your teammates, management, teammates, opposition, matchups in the playoffs are all extremely important elements to the success of a team. Players are, fairly or unfairly, evaluated with these factors not being taken into account. Could T-Mac have developed a mean streak and demanded better teammates, sure? Could he have decided whether Yao got injured? No. And yet he was being evaluated as a single player based on team accomplishments.

Tmac apologists

mcgrady never had the mindset of a winner. period.

[AchillesHeel]

I don't get why ORL traded away T-Mac after drafting Dwight. Imagine if Mac stayed with D12 in Orlando. I'd say him and D12 would have gone to the Finals instead in 07 if both healthy.

[ambchang]

Tmac apologists

mcgrady never had the mindset of a winner. period.

He would have if he get to played with the most dominant player of our generation.

[RsxPiimp]

He would have if he get to played with the most dominant player of our generation.

the guy couldn't get out of the 1st rd against dirk and jason terry mavs with a healthy yao ming on his side. what makes you think he'll win a championship

rockets actually played better without mcgrady, evident by their 22 win streak and taking the lakers to 7 games.

lets call a spade a spade.

[Michael Jordan.]

the guy couldn't get out of the 1st rd against dirk and jason terry mavs with a healthy yao ming on his side. what makes you think he'll win a championship

rockets actually played better without mcgrady, evident by their 22 win streak and taking the lakers to 7 games.

lets call a spade a spade.

Rockets had NO business going 7 games with the Lakers. Kobe took more shots than Gasol every game that series except Game 7.

[Michael Jordan.]

And at Yao. McGrady wasn't completely at fault. Yao ALWAYS got dominated in the playoffs, other than him McGrady had s like Moochie Norris, Ryan Bowen, David Wesley, etc..

[RsxPiimp]

hard to defend a guy who never got out the 1st rd tbh. you guys can do it all day but it wouldnt hold weight. A player of his ability should at least make the 2nd rd. we're talking 1st rd

[AchillesHeel]

hard to defend a guy who never got out the 1st rd tbh. you guys can do it all day but it wouldnt hold weight. A player of his ability should at least make the 2nd rd. we're talking 1st rd

probably the only time I'll agree with this , tbh.

[Michael Jordan.]

hard to defend a guy who never got out the 1st rd tbh. you guys can do it all day but it wouldnt hold weight. A player of his ability should at least make the 2nd rd. we're talking 1st rd

Like Kobe from 05-07

[Katherine Robinson]

The Lakers were a far better team.

[ambchang]

the guy couldn't get out of the 1st rd against dirk and jason terry mavs with a healthy yao ming on his side. what makes you think he'll win a championship

rockets actually played better without mcgrady, evident by their 22 win streak and taking the lakers to 7 games.

lets call a spade a spade.

So what about the Lakers record with no Kobe, does that mean the Lakers play better without him? How about Kobe not even getting in the playoffs with a supporting cast similar to T-Macs?

And the Dirk and Terry Mavs won a championship in 2011, sweeping the Lakers on its way there.

[spurraider21]

Like Kobe in his prime

fify

[RsxPiimp]

So what about the Lakers record with no Kobe, does that mean the Lakers play better without him? How about Kobe not even getting in the playoffs with a supporting cast similar to T-Macs?

And the Dirk and Terry Mavs won a championship in 2011, sweeping the Lakers on its way there.

man is this a serious post?

[AchillesHeel]

So what about the Lakers record with no Kobe, does that mean the Lakers play better without him? How about Kobe not even getting in the playoffs with a supporting cast similar to T-Macs?

And the Dirk and Terry Mavs won a championship in 2011, sweeping the Lakers on its way there.

Don't you remember T-Mac having his best individual season and ORL still finished with a 42-40 record? And 21 - 61 the following year with T-Mac playing 67 games?

[ambchang]

man is this a serious post?

Yeah. Of course. Why does Kobe get off Scott free?

Don't you remember T-Mac having his best individual season and ORL still finished with a 42-40 record? And 21 - 61 the following year with T-Mac playing 67 games?

And Kobe accomplished exactly what between 05 and 07?

[AchillesHeel]

Yeah. Of course. Why does Kobe get off Scott free?



And Kobe accomplished exactly what between 05 and 07?

I'm just saying, T-Mac even when healthy didn't do on those Orlando teams. He achieved as much as Kirby in 03 being up 3 - 1 against the Pisstons but that's it.

[ambchang]

I'm just saying, T-Mac even when healthy didn't do on those Orlando teams. He achieved as much as Kirby in 03 being up 3 - 1 against the Pisstons but that's it.

That I agree. No individual can achieve team success without good teammates, coaching, management or sometimes luck, even a top 20 player like Kobe.

[RsxPiimp]

At no point and time, kobe had a supporting cast like mcgrady who showed they can win 22 games in a row, heck even with dwight, nash and pau on board, these losers were swept


and at calling the 2004-05 mavs the same mavs team in 2011

[Buddy Mignon]

He would have if he get to played with the most dominant player of our generation.

Kobe is the most dominanat player of his generation and its not even close.

[ElNono]

And Kobe accomplished exactly what between 05 and 07?

A losing record without having Shaq or Pau to carry him...