Evidence For God - Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

[silverblk mystix]

You gave opinion. You have no idea what truth is.

You're too stupid to know simple third grade word definitions.

Reduced again to an angry name caller.

I feel for you.

[xmas1997]

If he is just here to ridicule etc. then that is his agenda and how he gets his kicks.
The best way to handle that is if someone were to find those actions offensive, to not respond to his posts IMHO.
However I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, and let it all lay out there.
Then if they persist in wanting to argue, rather than question, then I quit responding to their questions.
We each are on different parts of our own particular paths. His may be leading him to different truths than mine is all.

[Blake]

Reduced again to an angry name caller.

I feel for you

I didn't melt down in calling you stupid. If you can't properly use the simple term truth, I'm justified in calling you an idiot.

Seriously though, I'm impressed that you've actually had enough self control in this thread to not call me a cuck. Pat yourself on the back.

[silverblk mystix]

I didn't melt down in calling you stupid. If you can't properly use the simple term truth, I'm justified in calling you an idiot.

Seriously though, I'm impressed that you've actually had enough self control in this thread to not call me a cuck. Pat yourself on the back.

since when is -truth- a simple term?

truth is something you know little of

insults are all you know

[Blake]

since when is -truth- a simple term?

truth is something you know little of

insults are all you know

Truth in this case is a simple term. If you are going to claim you have truth, then you prove it.

But you won't. Stupidity + insults + meltdowns are all you are here.

[silverblk mystix]

Truth in this case is a simple term. If you are going to claim you have truth, then you prove it.

But you won't. Stupidity + insults + meltdowns are all you are here.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt - because we seemed to have someone in here (xmas) that was trying to have an adult discussion or a gentleman's discussion - so I have been all business.

Is it impossible for you to do this?

What truth did I claim. I said that I gave you a truthful answer - I did. It is the only way I can answer. What was untruthful about it?

Where did I make a claim?

Or what are you referring to?

If you are unable to stay in the spirit of the thread- then say so - you can insult others for a change.

[silverblk mystix]

If he is just here to ridicule etc. then that is his agenda and how he gets his kicks.
The best way to handle that is if someone were to find those actions offensive, to not respond to his posts IMHO.
However I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, and let it all lay out there.
Then if they persist in wanting to argue, rather than question, then I quit responding to their questions.
We each are on different parts of our own particular paths. His may be leading him to different truths than mine is all.

Question for you;

Have I insulted anyone in this thread?

I appreciate you trying to stay above the stupidity and have tried to be all business. Did I insult anyone in this thread?

[xmas1997]

You are asking me?
All I can say to that is go back and read your posts, especially the ones to Blake, or to maybe skull.
You tell me if you've been insulting.
For the most part you've been discussing because this is a discussion, at least I think it is.
I don't want to get into casting stones.
But I also think no one can be a harsher judge of our own actions and words than we ourselves can. We are our own worst critic, as they say (whoever "they" are).
But it really depends on your perspective.
As my grandfather used to tell me, "one persons' poison is another persons' pie".

In another way to look at the Paul issue and why I think he was the most mystical of all the others is because of his background, his roots as the first and only gentile Apostle. He brought a completely different perspective to the table not grounded in Jewish law. Plus he had to be physically blinded in order to reverse his agenda. My guess is this experience was a lot deeper than what meets the eye and on such a personal level that that deeper mystical experience was kept hidden.
As you mention he was the farthest departure from Jesus, and not even Jewish, yet all the others accepted him with no problems. That alone tells me there was a lot more going on beneath the surface than what we read in Bible.
I Am That I Am

[silverblk mystix]

You are asking me?
All I can say to that is go back and read your posts, especially the ones to Blake, or to maybe skull.
You tell me if you've been insulting.
For the most part you've been discussing because this is a discussion, at least I think it is.
I don't want to get into casting stones.
But I also think no one can be a harsher judge of our own actions and words than we ourselves can. We are our own worst critic, as they say (whoever "they" are).
But it really depends on your perspective.
As my grandfather used to tell me, "one persons' poison is another persons' pie".

In another way to look at the Paul issue and why I think he was the most mystical of all the others is because of his background, his roots as the first and only gentile Apostle. He brought a completely different perspective to the table not grounded in Jewish law. Plus he had to be physically blinded in order to reverse his agenda. My guess is this experience was a lot deeper than what meets the eye and on such a personal level that that deeper mystical experience was kept hidden.
As you mention he was the farthest departure from Jesus, and not even Jewish, yet all the others accepted him with no problems. That alone tells me there was a lot more going on beneath the surface than what we read in Bible.
I Am That I Am

It isn't that complicated.

You tried to keep things civil - I told you directly that I admired your effort and stayed true to the spirit of the thread.

If you choose not to answer - fair enough.

I have not insulted anyone in this thread as I feel it is a worthwhile thread - but I can see - that won't be possible to expect the same out of others.

Thanks.

[xmas1997]

It isn't that complicated.

You tried to keep things civil - I told you directly that I admired your effort and stayed true to the spirit of the thread.

If you choose not to answer - fair enough.

I have not insulted anyone in this thread as I feel it is a worthwhile thread - but I can see - that won't be possible to expect the same out of others.

Thanks.

It might be better to just ignore the jabs of others in the higher interests of this subject.
That is what I am trying to do.
I tried to get skull to open up and share, but he just wanted to play "riddle me this" so I finally had to just let it go.
I'm not really sure where he is coming from, or if he even knows himself.
But that is ok too, if he wants to share he will, if not, so be it.
Blake seems sincere, but every now and again I get the impression he wants to quibble over minor issues and that he doesn't examine the gray areas which make up the vast majority of this subject IMHO.
The quest for enlightenment means not limiting oneself to any book, teaching, or point of view IMHO.
Everything must be examined and meditated on, allowed to sit and cook, and then reexamined.
What is unclear at one point of the path, may become clear at another point. Some things just need to cook for a while.
To my way of thinking you cannot study a book like the Bible, or the Torah, Quran, or especially the Kabala and teachings of the Druids or Wiccan without meditating and suspending reality as best you can.
Thus to think these books can ONLY be read in a literal sense is tantamount to being naive IMHO.
And When discussing such controversial subjects like this I have to constantly use the "IMHO" tag just to maintain civility, and so as to not lead astray.
IMHO even agnosticism is pertinent and leads to deeper discoveries.
I try not to leave any stone unturned, and at the same time resist the temptation to cast them at people just because I perceive something they say to be ignorant or flaming, thus giving the benefit of the doubt.
If I look at things in a more humorous way then it becomes easier to do, and makes me feel good at the same time!

[silverblk mystix]

It might be better to just ignore the jabs of others in the higher interests of this subject.
That is what I am trying to do.
I tried to get skull to open up and share, but he just wanted to play "riddle me this" so I finally had to just let it go.
I'm not really sure where he is coming from, or if he even knows himself.
But that is ok too, if he wants to share he will, if not, so be it.
Blake seems sincere, but every now and again I get the impression he wants to quibble over minor issues and that he doesn't examine the gray areas which make up the vast majority of this subject IMHO.
The quest for enlightenment means not limiting oneself to any book, teaching, or point of view IMHO.
Everything must be examined and meditated on, allowed to sit and cook, and then reexamined.
What is unclear at one point of the path, may become clear at another point. Some things just need to cook for a while.
To my way of thinking you cannot study a book like the Bible, or the Torah, Quran, or especially the Kabala and teachings of the Druids or Wiccan without meditating and suspending reality as best you can.
Thus to think these books can ONLY be read in a literal sense is tantamount to being naive IMHO.
And When discussing such controversial subjects like this I have to constantly use the "IMHO" tag just to maintain civility, and so as to not lead astray.
IMHO even agnosticism is pertinent and leads to deeper discoveries.
I try not to leave any stone unturned, and at the same time resist the temptation to cast them at people just because I perceive something they say to be ignorant or flaming, thus giving the benefit of the doubt.
If I look at things in a more humorous way then it becomes easier to do, and makes me feel good at the same time!

Agree with a lot of this with one or two exceptions - but it leads to the same place - just taking a different route.

Truth/god/enlightenment/love/reality - IMO - are not really things you acquire - or "attain"

Those things are more like a state we sometimes can enter - either accidentally - or by some universal grace - or some consequence of being aware of the present reality - and then we fall back into human ... consciousness - or worse - go back to sleep - until the next ...glimpse.

You won't find me discussing or debating the bible - in itself - or quotes, passages, information from it and arguing about the meaning of it - because - like religion - it becomes something more important than god/love/reality - when in fact it was probably meant to lead you closer to god - it ends up leading you down a "worship" state -

Love before worship - IMO.

[xmas1997]

Agree with a lot of this with one or two exceptions - but it leads to the same place - just taking a different route.

Truth/god/enlightenment/love/reality - IMO - are not really things you acquire - or "attain"

Those things are more like a state we sometimes can enter - either accidentally - or by some universal grace - or some consequence of being aware of the present reality - and then we fall back into human ... consciousness - or worse - go back to sleep - until the next ...glimpse.

You won't find me discussing or debating the bible - in itself - or quotes, passages, information from it and arguing about the meaning of it - because - like religion - it becomes something more important than god/love/reality - when in fact it was probably meant to lead you closer to god - it ends up leading you down a "worship" state -

Love before worship - IMO.

Actually I agree with you, especially the love before worship. I do disagree on being able to attain or acquire, but that is ok
I can respect your feelings on the pathways or states to get there.
In fact your ideas on it maybe explain why Paul was the way he was, in that he would occasionally fall back out of his blissful state.
He reminds me of the old adage of being a greater critic about himself than any of those he rebuked. It well be that he was talking about himself and his own insecurities and inadequacies in order to rebuke himself. He may even have been feeling quite ashamed for his earlier persecutions and it was his way of penance.
But who knows? That was a mind fart if there ever was one!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I love Snufflupagus.

[silverblk mystix]

Actually I agree with you, especially the love before worship. I do disagree on being able to attain or acquire, but that is ok
I can respect your feelings on the pathways or states to get there.
In fact your ideas on it maybe explain why Paul was the way he was, in that he would occasionally fall back out of his blissful state.
He reminds me of the old adage of being a greater critic about himself than any of those he rebuked. It well be that he was talking about himself and his own insecurities and inadequacies in order to rebuke himself. He may even have been feeling quite ashamed for his earlier persecutions and it was his way of penance.
But who knows? That was a mind fart if there ever was one!

Well, the reason for my opinion on not "attaining" grace/enlightenment/love/god whatever -

is that greed enters the picture - yes - even spiritual greed is greed. You are ambitious about attaining enlightenment? You lose your way - and fall out of "awareness" and enter into longing, ambition, greed, etc...

Truth can be sighted suddenly or gradually - but if your heart is hardened by ambition and/or greed - it won't be truth you discover IMO - it will be something else...

If one can be open to all things present to his senses - without excluding anything - or judging anything - or "labeling" it - and you attain this posture without trying to change it or alter it or grasp it or hold on to it - you are most definitely a "candidate" to receive some truth - if there is some truth waiting to reveal itself.

It is the very rare individual who is able to even grasp a tiny bit of this truth - because they are too busy "trying" or "judging" or hoping for something or aspiring to something greater - and truth goes on its way to wherever it temporarily goes...

How many see present reality in its fresh present state without falling back on their programming/conditioning to label and judge what they are seeing? Can you see what is before you through the eyes of an infant - but with the intelligence of the formed brain? Most can see through their concepts - their formulas - their conditioning - but since they already "know" they cannot see it simultaneously - through the eyes of the child/infant. These things get in the way when interpreting "reality" -"reality-right now-this present moment"

Not reality - as filtered through your programming/conditioning/experiences/memory/habits - but reality as in - it is going on right now - this very second and I am watching it as if it were the very first time - freshness.

Another world altogether...IMO.

[xmas1997]

Well, the reason for my opinion on not "attaining" grace/enlightenment/love/god whatever -

is that greed enters the picture - yes - even spiritual greed is greed. You are ambitious about attaining enlightenment? You lose your way - and fall out of "awareness" and enter into longing, ambition, greed, etc...

Truth can be sighted suddenly or gradually - but if your heart is hardened by ambition and/or greed - it won't be truth you discover IMO - it will be something else...

If one can be open to all things present to his senses - without excluding anything - or judging anything - or "labeling" it - and you attain this posture without trying to change it or alter it or grasp it or hold on to it - you are most definitely a "candidate" to receive some truth - if there is some truth waiting to reveal itself.

It is the very rare individual who is able to even grasp a tiny bit of this truth - because they are too busy "trying" or "judging" or hoping for something or aspiring to something greater - and truth goes on its way to wherever it temporarily goes...

How many see present reality in its fresh present state without falling back on their programming/conditioning to label and judge what they are seeing? Can you see what is before you through the eyes of an infant - but with the intelligence of the formed brain? Most can see through their concepts - their formulas - their conditioning - but since they already "know" they cannot see it simultaneously - through the eyes of the child/infant. These things get in the way when interpreting "reality" -"reality-right now-this present moment"

Not reality - as filtered through your programming/conditioning/experiences/memory/habits - but reality as in - it is going on right now - this very second and I am watching it as if it were the very first time - freshness.

Another world altogether...IMO.

Wow. I completely agree with you.
Freshness.
I see your point about greed. I agree. Greed can certainly spoil a good dose of grace. Been there, done that.
The hope is that we can learn from our mistakes in order to allow the grace to open us up to our full potential and awareness in Christ, rather than our ambitions to getting more, and thus getting in our own way, sabotaging our own efforts.
What it may boil down to is reexamining our motivations. And if the motivation is based in love then we enter enlightenment through a sustainable force.
I think you are right about preconceived notions too, they do hinder us. That is another reason that it takes so long. Not only doubts, fears, worries, etc., get in our way, but so does prior programming such as you mention.

But once we've reached this state of "freshness" there can be no mistaking it, you are truly one with all that there is.
The key possibly is love. With love as your vehicle then you can resist the temptation of greed, to grasp for more than you are capable of understanding at any one point, resist your temptation to label. Since time and space fall away, an ever present now exists and you experience truth as truth truly is and not how you envision it to be.
In that state you can do whatever needs to be done, or realize, rather than what you want to be done, or think you want to realize, simply because the all knowing essence of you requires it of you, and not because you have your own selfish agenda.
I truly think you have hit the nail on the head in your assessment.
If so, then it becomes necessary for you to begin the process of housecleaning your spiritual essence so that you are able to live in that state of grace indefinitely, be the Christ as Christ is you.
What better purpose is there for you to do?
Once there, and in full awareness that you are, and fully maintained, then the whole concept of life may take on a more inclusive meaning.
The key is probably love. However, that purity of love may not be that simple to achieve.
But it is possible, and I believe sustainable.

[ismael-robert]

I haven't been keeping up but before I left I did see that xmas asked me this question:
If God is all-knowing why did He create Satan whom He knew would fall?
At the risk of sounding flippant, why not? For what reason or reasons should God have not created the devil even if he was going to fall? Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that the person (or angel) isn't free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen. Nevertheless, let me offer some possible reasons why God would create Satan even though He knew he would fall and rebel.
1.It was necessary to have the fall so that God could then have a reason to die for our sins thereby demonstrating that God can and does provide the greatest act of love which is to lay down one's life for his friend (John 15:13).
2.The fall of Satan provides yet another method for God to be glorified in that God can use sin to prove that sin is "bad" and that God's Word about righteousness is true.
3.If God is to have creatures with free will, then the risk of rebellion is part of that freedom. Satan had that freedom and used it to rebel.
4.If God had not created Satan and instead another angel fell, then we'd be asking why God made that angel knowing he would fall.
5.God has reasons about which we know nothing.

I know my children will act badly at times, but knowing that does not mean mean that I shouldn't have kids. Part of the risk of freedom is that rebellion will be a reality.

[ismael-robert]

Second, I saw you said works of other faiths weren't works of Satan. If Judiaism is original faith, and the death and blood of Christ is the only perfect thing that can atone for our sins in order to be in the presence of a perfect, holy God...then anything that gets in the way of receiving said atonement and in the way of our developing the relationship between ourselves and said God then it is something that works to Satan's favor. There are great science books that help explain how God's earth functions and the body etc and those are fine as long as they leave people in awe of creation and not thinking oh that could've happened by random chance and they move further from faith.
In skulls defense I know one reason why he has the at ude he does. He can tell there are people here that will never accept or receive faith/truth. Their sole purpose is to refute, criticize, etc. The Bible teaches there are people in this world who even if God stared them in the face they would still spit at him or throw a fist at Him...even faced with they would never repent...they are just incapable and totally depraved and thus skull realizes he is just wasting his time.

[ismael-robert]

Now I'll probably disappear for a while for yall to debate that again lol

[Blake]

If God is love, why would he create both the devil and knowing that he would throw him in later.

[xmas1997]

I haven't been keeping up but before I left I did see that xmas asked me this question:
If God is all-knowing why did He create Satan whom He knew would fall?
At the risk of sounding flippant, why not? For what reason or reasons should God have not created the devil even if he was going to fall? Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that the person (or angel) isn't free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen. Nevertheless, let me offer some possible reasons why God would create Satan even though He knew he would fall and rebel.
1.It was necessary to have the fall so that God could then have a reason to die for our sins thereby demonstrating that God can and does provide the greatest act of love which is to lay down one's life for his friend (John 15:13).
2.The fall of Satan provides yet another method for God to be glorified in that God can use sin to prove that sin is "bad" and that God's Word about righteousness is true.
3.If God is to have creatures with free will, then the risk of rebellion is part of that freedom. Satan had that freedom and used it to rebel.
4.If God had not created Satan and instead another angel fell, then we'd be asking why God made that angel knowing he would fall.
5.God has reasons about which we know nothing.

I know my children will act badly at times, but knowing that does not mean mean that I shouldn't have kids. Part of the risk of freedom is that rebellion will be a reality.

That was not me, Ismael. I would never pose a question like that to you or to anyone else.
But I am really glad to see you back. And your answer to whoever posed it is excellent. I agree.
Once you catch up, you will see we are finally having a decent discussion, well most of us anyway, once you wade through the dross of ridicule that keeps rearing it's ugly head.
Even skull is contributing now in his own odd way.
I honestly like where this thread is finally going.
Most of us are being civil.
And most of us are allowing for differing opinions without resorting to ridicule, or at least trying to resist.
Ismael, you bring up some very intriguing points as to why there is satan and Gods purpose for having him.

[Blake]

There are great science books that help explain how God's earth functions and the body etc and those are fine as long as they leave people in awe of creation and not thinking oh that could've happened by random chance and they move further from faith.

How old do you believe the earth is? The universe?

[silverblk mystix]

Wow. I completely agree with you.
Freshness.
I see your point about greed. I agree. Greed can certainly spoil a good dose of grace. Been there, done that.
The hope is that we can learn from our mistakes in order to allow the grace to open us up to our full potential and awareness in Christ, rather than our ambitions to getting more, and thus getting in our own way, sabotaging our own efforts.
What it may boil down to is reexamining our motivations. And if the motivation is based in love then we enter enlightenment through a sustainable force.
I think you are right about preconceived notions too, they do hinder us. That is another reason that it takes so long. Not only doubts, fears, worries, etc., get in our way, but so does prior programming such as you mention.

But once we've reached this state of "freshness" there can be no mistaking it, you are truly one with all that there is.
The key possibly is love. With love as your vehicle then you can resist the temptation of greed, to grasp for more than you are capable of understanding at any one point, resist your temptation to label. Since time and space fall away, an ever present now exists and you experience truth as truth truly is and not how you envision it to be.
In that state you can do whatever needs to be done, or realize, rather than what you want to be done, or think you want to realize, simply because the all knowing essence of you requires it of you, and not because you have your own selfish agenda.
I truly think you have hit the nail on the head in your assessment.
If so, then it becomes necessary for you to begin the process of housecleaning your spiritual essence so that you are able to live in that state of grace indefinitely, be the Christ as Christ is you.
What better purpose is there for you to do?
Once there, and in full awareness that you are, and fully maintained, then the whole concept of life may take on a more inclusive meaning.
The key is probably love. However, that purity of love may not be that simple to achieve.
But it is possible, and I believe sustainable.

Well said.

All I would add is that this is not new information - it has been there staring us in the face for ages - and also - this is not a process of addition - it is one of subtraction.

IMO & in my journey it has come to light that most seekers think they need to ADD something....to reality. More holiness, more meditation, more spirituality, more god, more love, more more more....more prayer, etc...

Yet subtraction - might be the way.

Less effort, less judging, less opinions, get rid of programming, get rid of conditioning to be able to see again, get rid of desires that may prevent you from seeing clearly, die to the NEED for things/people/god (yes - get rid of the NEED for god - because - how can you love something you need and/or crave?) (you can only truly love something when you are free from the need/craving for it - this way you are loving it without the need to manipulate it to attain it.)

but I digress...

Subtracting the things that are a barrier/filter to reality. If you want to get anywhere near reality - you need to see. You need to perceive clearly and respond appropriately to the present reality - & only by subtracting the filters/barriers that are skewing your view can you see clearly.

Subtraction.

Only then might you be able to directly touch this "love" "god" and truly experience a glimpse of reality - even if only briefly - get to take a peek of a mystery of the universe.

[xmas1997]

Well said.

All I would add is that this is not new information - it has been there staring us in the face for ages - and also - this is not a process of addition - it is one of subtraction.

IMO & in my journey it has come to light that most seekers think they need to ADD something....to reality. More holiness, more meditation, more spirituality, more god, more love, more more more....more prayer, etc...

Yet subtraction - might be the way.

Less effort, less judging, less opinions, get rid of programming, get rid of conditioning to be able to see again, get rid of desires that may prevent you from seeing clearly, die to the NEED for things/people/god (yes - get rid of the NEED for god - because - how can you love something you need and/or crave?) (you can only truly love something when you are free from the need/craving for it - this way you are loving it without the need to manipulate it to attain it.)

but I digress...

Subtracting the things that are a barrier/filter to reality. If you want to get anywhere near reality - you need to see. You need to perceive clearly and respond appropriately to the present reality - & only by subtracting the filters/barriers that are skewing your view can you see clearly.

Subtraction.

Only then might you be able to directly touch this "love" "god" and truly experience a glimpse of reality - even if only briefly - get to take a peek of a mystery of the universe.

Yes, I am right there with you on subtraction.
Addition was needed at first in order for us to even begin to understand order.
But eventually we reach full circle and must begin to subtract all that we have built up in order for real truth to have a vessel to fill.
I honestly think we are on to something here.
I read the other posters and see their contentiousness and wonder if only they quit their arguing and spend an iota of their time then they might fill in the gaps, but so far same ol same ol.
These truths are truly for the "few" IMHO because the majority waste time arguing. That is sad.
But there must be a higher reason this type of bickering goes on.
It isn't new either, it's partially responsible for more than half the wars on this planet all through the ages.
You keep saying that one most probably can only catch glimpses.
Do you think it is possible to be one and the same with God, the universe, Christ in complete awareness of an ever present sustainable now, and still be aware of the material parts of existence?
Because I assume that is what Jesus was able to do. In other words he was able to exist within the bigger picture while also functioning quite ably in the material realms in order to get the message across.

[silverblk mystix]

Yes, I am right there with you on subtraction.
Addition was needed at first in order for us to even begin to understand order.
But eventually we reach full circle and must begin to subtract all that we have built up in order for real truth to have a vessel to fill.
I honestly think we are on to something here.
I read the other posters and see their contentiousness and wonder if only they quit their arguing and spend an iota of their time then they might fill in the gaps, but so far same ol same ol.
These truths are truly for the "few" IMHO because the majority waste time arguing. That is sad.
But there must be a higher reason this type of bickering goes on.
It isn't new either, it's partially responsible for more than half the wars on this planet all through the ages.
You keep saying that one most probably can only catch glimpses.
Do you think it is possible to be one and the same with God, the universe, Christ in complete awareness of an ever present sustainable now, and still be aware of the material parts of existence?
Because I assume that is what Jesus was able to do. In other words he was able to exist within the bigger picture while also functioning quite ably in the material realms in order to get the message across.

Interesting question - about the "glimpse"...hmmm...

Are you familiar with the Dancer & the Dance?

It was reportedly said that God said to St. Catherine of Siena - "I am he who is - you are she who is not"

Just what would - "is-not ness" be like?

In the east they have a saying - or an image - relating to this - (I am a little rusty - so humor me here...)

The Dancer and the Dance...where God is viewed as the Dancer and Creation - as the dance. But - you think you are the little dancer to god's big dancer - but this is where the "is-not-ness" comes in lol

No - You are not a dancer at all - you are being danced!

It isn't to say you don't exist - or you are less - as some might translate - it is just a hint - of the universe or creation or reality or whatever - is just being danced by god - and we are all just being danced - we aren't really dancers...lol

A little different angle - I know - but this is what struck me when you asked if it was possible to be one and the same with god/love/reality -

could it be any other way?

I personally don't believe so. But - whose to say?

[xmas1997]

Actually I believe we are one and the same with God, but like you and I discussed earlier we get in the way of realizing it.
The subtraction rather than addition may be our best hope of not repeating this vicious cycle.
But to rationalize it may not allow us to gain the sought after result, because it puts right back into preconceived notions again.
It may well be that the only way to truly know truth for the sake of truth alone and not due to any of our baser motivations, may be through the same sort of mystical revelation that converted Paul.
And if that is the case then we may be in for a very long wait.
I sincerely hope I am wrong about that.
I do think we need to be that aware for the sake of the Father, for His love.
But can we ever fully rid or subtract ourselves of ourselves in order to fill ourselves with the truth of God?
it sounds like the rational course of action, but just because it is so rational, doesn't that also mean that it is the wrong course because it presupposes preconceived notions?
We may be making this much harder than it really is too.
There is the parable of the mus seed to consider and the power of faith, the faith of a child that you mentioned earlier.
It all may be just that simple and our conditioning is just making it all harder.
Much to meditate and ponder over.