KG was the best player on the Cs in '08, anybody that thinks it was Pierce is a re . Did he have more talent than Dirk did? Sure but then again Dirk always had more talent prior to that. The only year KG had compareable talent in Minny was in 2004 and he played out of his mind that year. Injuries hit Cassell in the playoffs and that was that. Didn't have anything to do with KG's 'limitations'.
agree. when I was playing old-version NBA lives I always had a hard time figuring out how to use him, at the offensive end primarily. Dude was an incredible rebounder and he scored some pick'n'roll points as well as points from 2nd chances but you can never make him the offensive core of your team imho. and that's why the likes of DH and KG, and even Ben Wallace can't be the #1 on a champion team.
So the pundits who handed Paul Pierce the finals MVP trophy must be all re s imho. The prime KG was a better all-round player and he always had some crazy overall ratings in old-version video games, but like stretch figured out above, his limitations in offense always prevented him from being the right leader of a team that's poised to win the championship. you brought up Sam Cassell's injury in 04 (though I'm not really sure what happened that year, I was a math/physics nerd back then) as an evidence to rebut KG's offensive limitation that stretch addressed, but imho it worked out against your standpoint. It just demonstrated how limited his offensive game was, and how much he counted on role players to bail him out offensively. So when an important role player failed, the team failed, but a legit leader would of never let it happen. We lost Caron Butler (the #2 or #3 scoring option of that team then) before or after the all-star break I'm not sure, but we ended up winning the championship that year anyway with a new set of role players featuring Peja, JJB, Findog and Lincoln.
Mavs in 2011 maybe wouldn't win with KG, but 2008 Celtics probably would not win with Dirk in place of Garnett
it depends on the supporting casts.
I think KG's impact is probably greater.
Dirk for sure. Spurs v Mavs and Duncan v Dirk were always epic. Throw in the interstate connection and brilliant playoff matchups. Correct if i'm wrong but I can only recall Spurs v Wolves only playing one playoff series against each other (1999) So with Duncan v Dirk in the same conference, same division all these years its definitely Dirk. Him and the Mavs have just always been there. That and Dirk has been the greatest shooting big man ever that I can think of and played with extra fire against the spurs. I always remember looking forward to any mavs v spurs game and having it circled on the calander so to speak. Cant say the same about spurs v wolves or spurs v Celtics.
But you never count on role players to win championships imho. they may carry you close to it (like the 13' spurs) but the onus is always on your star players to finish the last few steps, in crunch minutes.
I think the impacts KG made on the 08' celts was similar to what your kid's daddy TC did on the 11' team, and it's hard to say who was more important to that team, dirk or TC. It's certainly safe to say we wouldn't have won it without TC. I think TC, or KG in celtics' case, was like a catalyst that boosted the team's chemistry and escalated the team to the elite level, but the responsibility still came down to the real leaders (Dirk and Pierce) when really mattered. Pierce came back from wheelchair and won the game and subsequently the series for the 08' celtics, imho
KG had the same impact Big Daddy Tyson had on the defensive end and chipped in 20 ppg on the other end. A whopping one point less than what Pierce averaged--yall act like Pierce was averaging 30 and KG 15 or something.
The Finals MVP is not all that different than Parker getting it over Duncan in 07 tbh.
Garnett isn't in Dirk's tier tbh. Garnett or Gasol would be a more suitable topic
I remember when I used to give a about these kind of threads.
Dirk is a beast on offense. KG on defense. Dirk has improved defensively but is not a great defender. KG has been an effective offensive player almost every year in the league and was a much better rookie than Dirk was. I would love to hear the advanced nerds weigh in since so many love to weigh in on other debates. Im with Amb I would choose Dirk as my franchise player because his game is so unique and a TRULY great scorer is hard to find. But imho KG is closer on offense to Dirk than Dirk is to KG on defense. Plus KG is a greater leader. but defense the type that KG plays never has an "off" night. I think KG impacts the game on more levels.
It's a great argument because they both have unique strengths. A case can be made that Dirk's shot making ability and clutch jumpers are more valuable than the leadership and defensive strengths KG brings along with a great mid-range jumper.
These are two of my favorite non-Lakers. So tough call. but if both dropped dead today I give a slight edge to KG. But it's very close.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 10-15-2013 at 08:39 AM.
Dirk because he loves my Poldi. Also, because Garnett is a
What up VQ? I think many on here cant separate KG being an asshole, from him being one of the best players of the straight to HS generation and every bit on dirk's level. Right now only Kobe can be ranked ahead career wise over KG of the recent HS players (not counting Moses) with Lebron likely passing both.
I think most people understand how great KG was as an all-around, complete basketball player. But throughout his career, he consistently was unreliable in the clutch, because he didn't have particularly good ability to create shots for himself that he could consistently hit under pressure. Generally, he needed someone else to create a midrange jumper for him, and while he was generally money with it, however he had a tendency to start bricking that shot bad in the final 5 minutes of close games.
The reason most people are choosing Dirk, is because they are looking at it from a perspective of "who would you rather build a team around?", not "who is the better all around basketball player?". And honestly, I think the first question matters more in terms of an individuals greatness. There have been plenty of players who were better all around basketball players than Magic and Larry Bird. Both of them were weak defensively (much like Dirk), Magic wasn't a particularly good jump shooter, while Larry lacked physical advantages that others had. But it doesn't change the fact that they are two of the 10, probably 5 greatest players ever, mainly because of their leadership and ability to produce for their team when their teams needed them most. KG has NEVER been a guy known to consistently come through for his team in the clutch. But somehow since he acts like an asshole on the court and barks and punches his chest a bunch, that makes him look "tough" and like a "leader", even though his on court performance when his team needed him most didn't prove any such thing.
Fair critcisim of KG's inablity to create his own shot. And I agree that the dirk/bird comaprison (although Dirk lack's his vision) is an apt one. dirk's 2011 shooting clutch, regular season and playoffs was the best i ever seen.
Magic improved his jump shot much like Dirk/KG has improved their post game. So to say Magic wasnt a good jump shooter (good, not great) is false.
Rather fair or not many of the fans of the Mavs fans in DFW (i know I live in Frisco) derided Dirk as a choker before 2011. Many of the same critcisims that are probably still true for KG could be leveled at Dirk at one point in time. Without Tyson maybe some of those detractors still exist. I just think that there is bias in plenty of these type of debates. People lean to the player "they like".
Dirk is a badass. His 2011 Finals and 2005-2006 level of play were probably better than ANYTHING KG has ever done on offense and it's not close. a
Again to build, I take Dirk, but just saying like you did KG is better all around and for a career (so far) KG gets a slight edge.
on a related note it's only pre-season but Dirk looks closer to 2011 Dirk than KG looks like say even 2010 KG ... I think whenit's all said and done (both retired) I may choose Dirk.
Honestly, it's a coin flip. People arguing for either guy all have legitimate points. But to me it's an either-or toss-up. I will say this about the "alpha" argument. Dirk is viewed as an alpha dog because he's the go-to scorer, the clutch scorer. But being the highest scorer or go-to guy on the team doesn't necessarily make you the alpha dog. Bill Russell was an alpha without necessarily doing it with scoring. Magic was an alpha even in the seasons Kareem or Worthy were the team's leading scorer. And Worthy didn't become the alpha in seasons he led the team in scoring. You don't have to be the leading scorer to be an alpha. And scoring isn't the only thing that matters. 2004 Kevin Garnett might have been the most complete player in the NBA since mid 90s Hakeem and before LeBron became the complete player he is a few years later.
There really is no wrong answer. The only things I've read that I really disagree with are 1) the argument that either is on a different level than the other. They aren't. They're in the same category and on the same level; and 2) that Kevin Garnett wasn't the best player on the 2008 Celtics team. Whoever suggested the latter must be just looking at points per game, again as if that determines anything. Pierce may have won the FMVP, but KG was the best player on that team. And it wasn't close.
Healthy perspective Jam and I agree ... how ya been playboy?
You always bring up Bird and Magic you god damn homer. How many times do I gotta tell you both are near the top for most career triple-doubles? Magic could dominate a game without scoring, so could Bird. Dirk cant. Hes a great scorer but thats it, hes average in every other aspect of the game.
You bring up KG consistently 'choking' as if Dirk was as clutch as he was in 2011 throughout his career. 2006 Dirk choked, 2007 Dirk got manhandled by an 8th seed. His other teams never had a chance at a le and were first/second round fodder.
And KG's team always had a chance at the le?
As I said before the shooting Dirk is on Bird's leel but vision he is nowhere close. And Again even Mavs fans were questioning Dirk's clutch genes prior to 2011. But to be fair thiough he had some high priced team-mates he never played with McHale, Parish, Dj or Ainge.
That wasnt the point, dip . This is why I dont even bother writing out long posts on this subject anymore...the mavs fanbase is full of re ed homers like you tbh.And KG's team always had a chance at the le?
Atleast Dirk got HIS team to the finals twice, . KG needed to join another team to do that...
Dirk is one of only two players in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs for their careers. Obviously Dirk brings more to the table than just scoring. He is known for stepping up mightily as a rebounder in the playoffs. , we even did a whole thread on this once, showing his defensive rebounding percentage was surprisingly high in the playoffs, and quite comparable (in several cases, superior) to other notable rebounders like KG, Duncan, Dwight, Barkley, Robinson, and others.
Not to mention the fact that virtually every player that has played with him, has had the most efficient years of their career. I can't begin to tell you how many were inefficient scorers before playing with Dirk, then have highly efficient years with him, and as soon as they leave, their efficiency drops massively. He obviously makes the game easier for his teammates, something that countless teammates of his has attested to.
I've never said that he is the best all around player around. Anyone who does is stupid. But to say that his contributions are his points and that's it, is absolutely ridiculous and narrow minded (per the norm for you, lolutsa)
Yes, he did and he had plenty of help. Considerably more than KG ever had in Minny.
Very unlikely that Dirk does any better if he was ever in a situation like Minny. But dumbass homers like you dont take the time to think about things like that tbh.
Obviously it streches beyond the Mavs fanbase, considering the majority of people in this thread are picking Dirk, and most of them have been spursfans...
Give the slight edge to Garnett
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