NBA: Dirk or KG?

[Phillip]

I have no problems with people saying KG > Dirk, or Dirk > KG. To me, they are very very close in overall impact, but they are pretty much polar opposites as players. What I do find to be an issue is that it is definitive that one is better than the other, and there is no room for argument. Throughout their entire careers, they put up very similar numbers and impact to their respective teams.

This.

Morons like FkLA say I'm a homer, and I've clearly stated that each player is better for different purposes.

[AchillesHeel]

Mavs in 2011 maybe wouldn't win with KG, but 2008 Celtics probably would not win with Dirk in place of Garnett

it depends on the supporting casts.

I think KG's impact is probably greater.

lol, 2011 KG with 2011 Mavs = no le

Dirk BEASTED through the playoffs, without his offense, there's no way the Mavs beat the Heat. KG is a great defender, but ever since 2010 he's gotten worse by the year. The Mavs were build around Dirk, the Celtics weren't build around KG offensively. 08 Celtics had so many great defenders and shooters, I think with Dirk they still win it all in 08 and probably in 09 as well because KG was injured that year.

2011 Dirk was something else in the playoffs, 28 ppg 8 reb 2.5 ast 48,5% FG 46% 3PT 94% FT 60,9% TS 25.2 PER, there's no way KG in 2011 would make up for that kind of production.

[diego]

In 99, 01, and 02, the Wolves had 50 wins and made the playoffs each of those years, but had first round exits. The supporting cast?

Terrell Brandon 99/01 - A very solid guard who could score and rack up assists effectively, averaging around 15/8 in those seasons.
Chauncey Billups 01 - We all know how solid of a career Billups has had, and this season was when he began to gain steam for his career, with a solid season of 12/5.
Wally Sczerbiak 99/01/02 - One of the best shooters in the league during these years, and a very efficient scorer, including an all-star appearance.
Anthony Peeler 99/01/02 - Tenacious defender and a lethal spot up 3 point shooter, usually averaging around 9 ppg.
Joe Smith 99/01/02 - While a bust of a career, still a very solid bench big man, with per36 stats usually around 14/8.
Troy Hudson 02 - Solid scorer for a few years of his career, and this was one of them.

You act as if KG NEVER had any kind of talent around him, outside of 2004, and that Dirk ALWAYS had teams loaded with talent, when in fact, these teams were quite comparable (arguably superior) in talent to Dirk's supporting cast in 07-10.

in 07-10, dirk was 29-31, a bit past his prime maybe but pretty much his prime considering his style of play.
in 99-02, KG was 22-25, at that age dirk was arguably not even the star of his team.

for example in 01-02 (age 23) dirk (two time all star, 1 all nba 2nd 1 nba 3rd team) had:
finley (20.6 ppg, 5.2 reb, two time all star)
Nash (17.9 ppg, 7.7 ast, all star that season, 3rd team all nba)
Van exel (13.2 ppg, 4.2 ast, former all star)
juwan howard (12.9 ppg, 7.4 reb, former all star, former 3rd team all nba)
lafrentz (10.8 ppg, 7.4 reb, 3rd overall pick)
tim hardaway (9.6 ppg, 3.7 ast, former all star, former all nba 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 3rd team)

age 23 KG (3x all star, 3rd team all nba, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defensive), 99-00:
terrel brandon (17.1ppg, 8.9 ast, 2 time all star 96 & 97 (like van exel or howard for the mavs))
Wally (11.6ppg, 3.7 reb, future all star)
malik sealy (11.3ppg, 4.3 reb)
joe smith (9.9 ppg, 6.2 reb, former 1st pick)
anthony peeler (9.8ppg, 2.4 ast)
sam mitc (6.5ppg, 2.1 reb)

not a single all-nba 1st/2nd/3rd team player outside of KG.

The reason I compared 08 KG to 11 dirk is because people constantly say that dirk was amazingly dominant in 11 and that KG was just a sidekick in 08. But the stats dont back that up, on the contrary they say that KG was the better player in his championship run.

I dont believe in stats being the end all of these arguments. And I agree that they are close and there are valid reasons to prefer dirk to KG. But I dont think you can really make an argument that kg had comparable teams to dirk while with the wolves, nor that you can equate kg's lack of a go to move on offense with dirk not being half the defender KG is, nor that you can criticize kg's chokes and simultaneously ignore dirk's (06, 07, 10).

[diego]

not to mention, in 99 - 02 the west had brutal teams like the twin tower spurs (lost in 99 and 01 both times as 8th seed vs 1st), 3 peat lakers, stockton malone Jazz, sheed/sabonis blazers (lost in 00 as 6th seed vs 3rd). they lost against the mavs in '02 as the 5th seed vs the 4th (all of these best of 5 format). 07-10, the mavs lost in the 1st round to the hornets (lead by a 22 yr old chris paul), beat the manu-less, turd tower spurs in 09 only to lose to the melo nuggets in the 2nd round, then lost to the 7th seeded RJ infected spurs in ´10. I would argue that dirk's team underachieved more in that stretch than KG's, age difference aside.

[nowhereman523]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?

- In their only playoff matchup, Dirk out of his prime destroyed KG in his prime. KG's much vaunted defense did nothing to slow down Nowitzki. If his defense was such a weapon, why was it not utilized to slow down the Mavericks' greatest weapon?

- In 2004, before Dirk's peak, national pundits already considered him more valuable than KG - http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...simmons/020404

It's just KG fans that need to continue to relitigate this debate, and to reframe history. The facts speak for themselves. The Lakers almost traded MVP-level Shaq for Dirk. The Wolves traded KG for scraps.

[FkLA]

How can Duncan score without the ball in his hands? Duncan also had 3 assists, and shot 6 for 7 from the FT line with 1 TO in crunch time in the regular season (so much for FT woes), and 1 assist and 0 TO in the playoffs.
Ginobili had 3 assists, shot 4 for 7 from the FT line with 4 TO in the regular season, and 2 assists, shot 1 for 2 from the FT line and had 1 TO in the playoffs.

I am not saying Ginobili sucked in crunch time, I am saying that Duncan didn't. And yes, Duncan got the ball a LOT in the clutch, and so did Ginobili. There is no point putting down Duncan just to prove your point.

As for your examples, Duncan nailed the shots with a Manu assist. Manu is a guard, of course he will handle the ball, not only in crunch time, but also throughout the entire game. Do you want to see Duncan bring the ball up court and run pick and rolls?

Not putting Duncan down at all. My initial point was that Ginobili closed for the Spurs, in response to people trying to discredit KG because Pierce had to 'close for him'. Kobe did it for Shaq as well. Its really not that uncommon.

I have no problems with people saying KG > Dirk, or Dirk > KG. To me, they are very very close in overall impact, but they are pretty much polar opposites as players. What I do find to be an issue is that it is definitive that one is better than the other, and there is no room for argument. Throughout their entire careers, they put up very similar numbers and impact to their respective teams.

Personally I think its definitive. This is how I see it...Dirk is the better, more unstoppable offensive player but lets not act like KG was a slouch on that end. Everyone outside of homers like Phillip know that KG put up his points and drew his share of double teams to open up things for teammates. Add to that the fact that his arguably the best defensive PF of all-time and how can anyone say their impacts were the same? Early to mid 2000s it was Duncan and KG and then the rest of the PFs, prior to 2011 Dirk was nowhere near KG career wise. 2011 brought him closer but not on par imo.

This.

Morons like FkLA say I'm a homer, and I've clearly stated that each player is better for different purposes.

You absolutely are a homer, dip . The biggest one here.

[FkLA]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?

- In their only playoff matchup, Dirk out of his prime destroyed KG in his prime. KG's much vaunted defense did nothing to slow down Nowitzki. If his defense was such a weapon, why was it not utilized to slow down the Mavericks' greatest weapon?

- In 2004, before Dirk's peak, national pundits already considered him more valuable than KG - http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...simmons/020404

It's just KG fans that need to continue to relitigate this debate, and to reframe history. The facts speak for themselves. The Lakers almost traded MVP-level Shaq for Dirk. The Wolves traded KG for scraps.

Look at these dumbass homers coming out of the woodwork...

the Lakers almost traded Shaq for Dirk

[Phillip]

You absolutely are a homer, dip . The biggest one here.

cool comeback bro

[ohmwrecker]

They are both worse than Tim Duncan.

[FkLA]

cool comeback bro

thanks

[Phillip]

thanks

lol utsa

[FkLA]

lol utsa

lol utsa>no college

[Rogue]

college is overrated though unless you went to the top ones like Yale and Harvard, the rest ain't meaning no matter it's UCLA or UTSA. I wish I had chosen a badass major for my undergraduate years so I'd have also been making good $ now like my s m>s and DoK do

[ambchang]

Not putting Duncan down at all. My initial point was that Ginobili closed for the Spurs, in response to people trying to discredit KG because Pierce had to 'close for him'. Kobe did it for Shaq as well. Its really not that uncommon.

They didn't close for the big guys, they handled the ball because they are guards. Statistics showed that Shaq was consistently closing games in the early 00s, so was Duncan. OTOH, Pierce closed for Garnett because Garnett couldn't. With the exception of that Sacramento game, I couldn't think of any big KG playoff closing games from an offensive standpoint.

Personally I think its definitive. This is how I see it...Dirk is the better, more unstoppable offensive player but lets not act like KG was a slouch on that end. Everyone outside of homers like Phillip know that KG put up his points and drew his share of double teams to open up things for teammates. Add to that the fact that his arguably the best defensive PF of all-time and how can anyone say their impacts were the same? Early to mid 2000s it was Duncan and KG and then the rest of the PFs, prior to 2011 Dirk was nowhere near KG career wise. 2011 brought him closer but not on par imo.

Statistics say otherwise. KG, outside of 03-04, never had a DWS season over 7 (he had a phenomenal 8 that one season, his next highest was 6). Duncan on the other hand, had 3 (with another two seasons of 6.9, and one with 6.8).

In terms of overall WS, Garnet had one phenomenal season (again, 03-04) of 18.2, which trumps any seasons Duncan or Dirk ever had, but his next highest were 16.1, 15.6, 14.9 and 12.9. Dirk's top five seasons were 17.7 , 16.3, 16.1, 15.6, and 14.6. The numbers are very comparable.

And Dirk is one of the, if not, the best offensive PF of all time, and he was at least decent on D (not as good as KG was offensively).

You absolutely are a homer, dip . The biggest one here.

[Phillip]

lol utsa>no college

obviously no, considering your crappy takes. oh yeah, and diaw > lee

[nowhereman523]

Look at these dumbass homers coming out of the woodwork...

the Lakers almost traded Shaq for Dirk

How many times do you have to lose this argument before you shut up?

[FkLA]

They didn't close for the big guys, they handled the ball because they are guards. Statistics showed that Shaq was consistently closing games in the early 00s, so was Duncan. OTOH, Pierce closed for Garnett because Garnett couldn't. With the exception of that Sacramento game, I couldn't think of any big KG playoff closing games from an offensive standpoint.

First off, let me say that KG is not as good as either Duncan or Shaq. And how exactly do you close when you dont have the ball in your hands? Thats the point, guards handling the rock for elite bigman is not that uncommon.

Also what do you consider a big offensive playoff game? KG was never an explosive scorer but pretty sure he averaged 20-25 ppg for Minny during his time there...most of his teams just sucked tbh.

Statistics say otherwise. KG, outside of 03-04, never had a DWS season over 7 (he had a phenomenal 8 that one season, his next highest was 6). Duncan on the other hand, had 3 (with another two seasons of 6.9, and one with 6.8).

In terms of overall WS, Garnet had one phenomenal season (again, 03-04) of 18.2, which trumps any seasons Duncan or Dirk ever had, but his next highest were 16.1, 15.6, 14.9 and 12.9. Dirk's top five seasons were 17.7 , 16.3, 16.1, 15.6, and 14.6. The numbers are very comparable.

And Dirk is one of the, if not, the best offensive PF of all time, and he was at least decent on D (not as good as KG was offensively).

Admittedly, Im not very familiar with the WS formula. But pretty sure winning games plays a big role in it, no? If so Im assuming it doesnt take into account quality of teammates. Otherwise imo theres no other reason why '03 KG (2nd behind Duncan in MVP voting) was nowhere near '04 KG who ended up winning it. I could probably look all this up to understand it better but Im pretty lazy tbh.

[FkLA]

obviously no, considering your crappy takes. oh yeah, and diaw > lee

That take has nothing on your Roddy take. Not to mention my takes are consistently better than yours imho.

Either way quality of basketball takes has nothing to do with whether college>no college tbh.

How many times do you have to lose this argument before you shut up?

Google 'Dirk or KG poll' tbh. Take a look at what people that arent blind homers like you think about it.

[Phillip]

Not to mention my takes are consistently better than yours imho.

Either way quality of basketball takes has nothing to do with whether college>no college tbh.

So in other words, you realize your takes are trash, and lol utsa

[FkLA]

^Dunning-Kruger effect, benefactor jr, etc.

Youre the guy that thinks Kawhi is a Shane Battier/Tony Allen type of player tbh.

So in other words, you realize your takes are trash, and lol utsa

No I realize that even if my takes were worse than yours, which we all know they arent, your no college going ass still has no room to lol any college.

[nowhereman523]

Google 'Dirk or KG poll' tbh. Take a look at what people that arent blind homers like you think about it.

The only thing dumber than a random internet survey is your take. You also haven't responded to any of the facts in the above posts, such as national pundits takes from 2004, KG missing all-NBA teams in his prime, and getting crushed in the head to head. Again, how many times a year do you need to lose this argument?

[FkLA]

The only thing dumber than a random internet survey is your take. You also haven't responded to any of the facts in the above posts, such as national pundits takes from 2004, KG missing all-NBA teams in his prime, and getting crushed in the head to head. Again, how many times a year do you need to lose this argument?

Ive explained all this to you before, but Ill do it one last time you little homer:

1. National pundits? Thats one guy. There arent very many others that wouldve taken KG over Dirk in '04 and if they did theyre idiots. KG won the MVP that year, dip .

2. Maybe cause he was on a terrible team? Unless you are dumb enough to believe he went from being a perennial All-NBA player, inexplicably started 'sucking' that one year, then magically returned to being good again. What kind of dumbass argument is this, seriously? Arguments like these are why I say homers are the worst.

3. Great offense beats great defense, doesnt matter who you are. KG not being able to shutdown Dirk is another dumb homer argument. The Mavs destroyed the Wolves because they were the better team. Funny how KG's supporting casts are only taken into account when trying to discredit his le with Boston but conveniently ignored when looking at his poor results in Minny. Homer.

[FkLA]

And at random internet survey.

What makes your opinion any better than these other fans opinions? If anything Id put more stock in theirs since they arent biased homers.

[benefactor]

I'm not sure what part of "stop tagging" is not getting through to you. Do you need a ing Spanish translation?

I don't give a about anything you have say. I don't want to engage you, I don't care about your dumb insults that you try to pass off as clever, I don't want to talk to you at all. Talking to you for a few minutes the other day was not an invitation for you to follow me around and tag me trying to constantly get my attention. Stick to talking to people that have yet to figure out that you should be spending your spare time behind a mower or spreading concrete instead of trying to debate anything.

[FkLA]

I'm not sure what part of "stop tagging" is not getting through to you. Do you need a ing Spanish translation?

I don't give a about anything you have say. I don't want to engage you, I don't care about your dumb insults that you try to pass off as clever, I don't want to talk to you at all. Talking to you for a few minutes the other day was not an invitation for you to follow me around and tag me trying to constantly get my attention. Stick to talking to people that have yet to figure out that you should be spending your spare time behind a mower or spreading concrete instead of trying to debate anything.