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You had to make a separate thread for this?
I agree with your opinion, but I don't think Kirby deserves another thread on the same topic, tbh.
There are 10 topics on Kirby on the 1st page alone, damn.
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE SO OBSESSED WITH KIRBY?
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...-#nbarank-fair
I'd say not unreasonable, given that most people who stated it had Duncan over Kobe, or tied with him.
But I would say the people who are obviously > Kobe, in no particular order:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Big O
Hakeem
Lebron
Moses
Active player who have a chance to surpass Kobe:
Durant
Players who are on the same plane as Kobe, but is generally considered not because they didn't coat tail as aggressively and didn't give themselves nicknames:
Dirk
Garnett
Dr. J
West
You had to make a separate thread for this?
I agree with your opinion, but I don't think Kirby deserves another thread on the same topic, tbh.
There are 10 topics on Kirby on the 1st page alone, damn.
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE SO OBSESSED WITH KIRBY?
Obsessed
There's another thread about ESPN ranking Kobe all time? I must have missed it. I apologize.
It's backlash against the dumbass Kirby slurpers who singlehandedly bring down the quality of basketball discussion, tbh....
Look, I don't usually post on this board, as the quality is pedestrian and trite at best. However, Kobe is undoubtedly in the Top 10 of all time. There's stats, cultural significance, peer kudos and overall significance to the game of ball. Coupled with his longevity it's very easy to put him up there already. The same reason we don't care about MJ's Washington days or the fact that he quit on his team and fans for 2 years. Or Bird's or Magic's crappy later seasons etc. No other player has had the scrutiny in the internet age and still managed to overcome them. I grew up watching ball in the 80's and 90's and definitely appreciate what players before have accomplished. Just watch the games I say and you'll see very clearly rather than parroting ESPN or other news outlets.
So which 3 in my list of top 12 will you take out?
Jordan
Magic
Bird
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Big O
Hakeem
Lebron
Moses
And stats actually show Kobe to most definitely NOT being in the top ten of all time. Cultural significance is moot as the team has more influence than an individual, peer kudos is again, useless as there is a strong factor of bias, and overall significance to the game of basketball favours old-timers quite a bit. In fact, Kobe brought NOTHING to the overall significance to the game of basketball, all he did was copy Jordan's everything.
Finally, Lebron had arguably more scrutiny than Kobe and overcame them. In fact, by limiting your scope to scrutiny and internet age, you pretty much is only including players from large markets over the last decade or so.
The Big O, Moses, Hakeem and Lebron. That's 3. Of course I'm talking about big market players given their pressure to perform is heightened. Stats is one part of the puzzle and while I appreciate your argument we are talking about a player that's still playing. Kobe's accomplishments and legend will only grow and not diminish as he gets older and time takes the place of everyday analysis. You being a Spur fan makes it dubious and difficult to assess Kobe as he's pretty much limited your team from further infamy during his prime years. Just look at this board as a cross-analysis and tell me who's been more scrutinized, discussed and picked apart other than Kobe. I've been a part of the Kori and Timvp show for going on 10 years now. It's a Kobe world my friend.
Lebron has unequivocally surpassed Kobe with his first championship. From every single statistical angle you look at it, Lebron is clearly better than Kobe. He has even tied Kobe in team accomplishments.
As for Big O, the guy was dominating in his days, averaging a triple double in his first few years, something that has never even been remotely done.
Moses was shoulder to shoulder with KAJ, which many people considered to be the best of all time.
Hakeem, again, was better than Kobe in every single dimension.
And Kobe's accomplishments and legend has ALREADY shrunk due to the 12-13 season.
Being a Spurs fan, I appreciated the players that they had to face. I had no qualms with giving Shaq his kudos and Shaq was the primary reason the Spurs didn't win more les (the Spurs after 06 didn't really face off too much against the Lakers), so it just shot your theory to . Kobe is getting all this scrutiny because a legion of uneducated fan-bois with little objectivity chimes in to overrate Kobe, resorting to distorting history (Kobe and Shaq shared equal billing in 01 and 02 is an example, Kobe is clutch is another example).
Look brother I appreciate your analysis and insight. You basically picked the best parts of said players in comparison. Each player has had dark days and crap years and times when they were "mortal". My favourite player is Pistol Pete and I believe on talent alone he should be in the top 10. I'm a minority on that opinion obviously. Our opinions are just that, opinions and makes for good discussion.
How can one season shrink a players legacy who has put a decade plus of impeccable work?
I would put them on even plain, and Kobe's worst years were worst than any of the other players worst. The only arguable one would be Hakeem, and even that is highly debatable. Moses Malone, I always felt, was one of the most underrated players of all time because:
a) He can't speak well (really, the guy can't speak)
b) Never played for a large media hub like NY or LA.
c) Never had any great teammates, other than those 6ers team. Guess what, he rung that year, in dominating fashion
Moses is another case of people looking at team accomplishments instead of individual accomplishments.
As for Pistol Pete, his peak was too short-lived, and he was extremely inefficient as a player. His moves were often times breath-taking, but ultimately unnecessary in a LOT of cases.
BTW, based on talent alone, Walton should be top 10 all time as well. Too bad the guys got Blazer feet.
You mean you haven't looked last year? Kobe's legacy was significantly impacted last year, not because last year was horrible, but last year exposed Kobe for what people had suspected him to be all along. People always gave him the benefit of the doubt, but last year answered a lot of questions for a casual observer, and those answers were good for Kobe fanbois.How can one season shrink a players legacy who has put a decade plus of impeccable work?
You can say it has impacted his career, I'd agree but using the word shrink to describe it is a bit over board.
Like Medvedenko said, all players have dark years throughout their respective careers, but in the grand scheme of things they are forgotten and in most cases has little to no impact.
He went from better than Duncan and Shaq (which was wrong to begin with) to worse than Duncan and Shaq over the course of a year. I can see Duncan's legend growing because of his rebound year, but Shaq was retired. The only way for this to happen was for Kobe's legend to have shrunk.
People don't forget dark prime years. Hakeem still is evaluated on the late 80's early 90's Rockets teams, Magic for his Tragic years, Lebron his 11 year, and Duncan's 8 (though you can argue he was no longer in his prime). Magic's come years, Jordan's Washington years, and Bird's injured back years are largely dismissed because they were clearly out of their prime years by then. It's like evaluating Kobe based on his first few years in a league, people just don't do that.
I will disagree that last year hurt his legacy. I feel it given his age and what he did for the team prior to him being injured was pretty amazing. Also, the amount of injuries the Lakers had and subsequent coaching changes had little to do with Kobe the player on the court. I watched 90% of the games last year and Kobe always played hard, held his teammates accountable and did what was needed to win. I find it troubling to see the "casual" observer think it was a down year given his team's inablility to get over the injury/chemistry issues. What were the differences in prior years with less talent when they actually went to 3 finals in a row?
I agree with this from am objective standpoint. I knew the expectations were sky high for them but they were plagued with injuries, left and right with 3 coaching changes in one season. The sweep actually proves how bad they missed Kobe's scoring ability in that series.
Even if Kobe was healthy they would have lost the spurs. He only masked the disease that was the Lakers last year.
Kobe's career will be remembered by him having to have an all star big to have any post seasons success, and even then it's not guaranteed. His off years won't be remembered much, just like Mike's. The Shaq years will be 1st, where Kobe was 2nd. Then there will be the Pau years were Kobe was gifted a Finals MVP just from popularity alone.
Think about Mike Tyson. What do you remember? I remember the rape and when Buster Douglas knocked him out. With Kobe, people will remember the rape trial, him threatening to quit and how he was like Morgan Freeman, always a decent supporting actor if he had a big star but never worth a in the lead role.
Duncan is top 10 on anyone's list. Kobe might not be. Consistency is why, and the fact that Duncan made the Spurs. Kobe just rode the Lakers.
If Bryant isn't a Laker, he's World B. Free 2.0. Guy never shot even 47% in a single season in his entire career. Histrionically overrated.
Is it just me or does this clown look like he's sucking an invisible ?
I agree, but with Kobe I feel like the series would've been a lot more compe ive. That series was so flat and lop sided, it was just akward. The Lakers were never in the game all series long.
Tyson's career is an awful comparison. He's ridiculed nowadays not only because of his boxing career but rather how he handled his life off the ring. Even after his prison term has ended, the world was ready to give Tyson a chance to redeem himself. He failed over and over again and making an embarassing spectacle of his mental and emotional breakdown.
Kobe's successful and knows how to carry himself off the court evident by his popularity and steady flow of endorsements. He's the exact opposite of Tyson because he wised up, matured and carried himself well after his trials and tribulations.
It's how he will be remembered that I am referring to. I didn't say he was like Tyson. People think of MJ as if he entered the league, won 6 rings and retired. He lost a lot before he won a lot. The big thing is that MJ was the alpha. Kobe's never been the obvious alpha on the team. He's been the ball hog, and been a verbally insistent proponent of "get me the ball" type offense, but he's an incessant whiner. Offensively talented, but maladjusted. He was never the player for LA that MJ was for Chicago, not one single season.
Kobe is the greatest media manipulator of all-time, tbh, not even Dad Killer is on the same level..he plays the media better than anybody I've ever seen..quotes that demonstrate his "killer instinct", subtly using excuses for injuries, etc..it has been proven many times that sociopaths are charming and cunning, tbh..
If Kobe played in the 80s or 90s, he would be remembered even more fondly, tbh, he would have benefited greatly from the fans and media's lack of access to data and tools..the Olajuwon effect x2, where aesthetics are remembered more vividly than actual data..unfortunately for him, his legacy will be continue to be deflated by the prominence of advanced numbers and available scouting tools(Synergy, etc), tbh..
Kobe is easily a top 10-player of all-time, though..he's certainly overrated, but still easily in the top 10..
I don't know if you can objectively and believe Kobe wasn't a leader or "Alpha" on any of the le teams. This is beating the dead horse, but Gasol in his lifetime has never showed he was or can be the Alpha leader of any NBA team.
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