NBA: Dirk or KG?

[diego]

Your point is taken, but look at the relative availability - if at any specific moment in the league's history you were to make a list of players good enough to be the best defensive player on a championship team and players good enough to be the best offensive player on a championship, the first list is almost certainly longer.

historically yes I'd agree. But definitely not for the last 10 years. Part of that is the rules have changed. Another part is that defenders will never have the fame, glory, contracts and groupies of scorers. But for a good solid 10 years the trend has been consistently in that direction- bigs are harder to find and therefore way more expensive regardless of talent, and most are better at scoring than defending, at the same time that perimeter scorers are becoming disposable. so at least in terms of availability / price, I dont see the argument but obviously a lot of those perimeter scorers are inefficient as and not at all comparable to someone like dirk or pierce.

in an earlier post you referenced the 2003 head to head match up, these were the rosters from the head to head series:
mavs (4th seed 57-25 record, 58M roster)
nowitzki (all nba 2nd team, all star)
finley
nash (3rd team all nba, all star)
van exel
lafrentz
najera
adrian griffin
greg buckner
wang zhi zhi

vs
wolves (5th seed, 50-32, 55M roster)
garnett (1st team defense, 2nd team all nba, all star)
billups
szcerbiak (all star)
rasho
peeler
gary trent
joe smith
sam mitc
felipe lopez

you cant possibly argue that the wolves had a better team and the difference maker was nowitzki v garnett; nowitzki just used his HC advantage and superior roster to win a series he was supposed to win (the same way that KG did in 08). and you cant argue otherwise when stephen jackson and jason richardson neutralized dirk's super offense in 07, despite the warriors being an 8th seed with no all stars and the mavs being 1st, having the mvp, the COY, 2 all stars. you just cant cherry pick like that.

[diego]

if your argument rests on the 06 finals run, you are already shooting yourself in the foot. that was a massively lucky run (i'll discount the WCSF because I'm partial but the WCF that year was a joke, and in the finals the joke was on you- a 61M roster lead by a 24 year old upsets prime dirk's home court advantage having 82.5M roster). If anything, 06 followed by 07 is proof that unless he got lucky, dirk was incapable of carrying the dampiers and diop's of the world, as it more often ended in upsets than finals runs.

[FkLA]

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team.

Id go as far as saying hes good enough to be 1a/1b (which is essentially what he was in '08). Especially during his absolute prime, who knows what MVP KG couldve done if Cassell didnt get hurt that year or if Spree didnt everything up with his 'feed my family' BS in the off-season. Solid points everywhere else though.

[ambchang]

Of course hes going to have a higher jumpshot percentage, just like Im sure a good three point shooter has a higher three point percentage than KG. Duncan has a better post game, KG had more range on his jumpshot and could handle the rock on the perimeter--it makes sense and doesnt really tell me much.

But you'd have to admit that that's a lot of shots from outside for an inside player. The point is, you originally said Duncan didn't close games, he did. I think this thread has gone off topic.

Sure, its a lot easier to get ahold of a Chandler than it is a Dirk. But KG isnt a Chandler, hes a Chandler+ that also happens to give you 20-25 ppg on the other end. Now those are hard to find.

No doubt. I am not saying KG is a Dirk sidekick, but he is not, or at least no demonstrated that he is, a #1 scoring option, that's all I am saying. I am not comparing KG to Chandler, I am comparing him to Dirk.

Other than '04, when were KGs teams ever favored to do anything in the postseason? They were 8th seeds/lower seeds the majority of his time there. The little success they did have was for the most part thanks to him, the shortcomings were despite his dominance. The dude literally never had a phenomenal team that faltered in the playoffs because of his shortcomings...KG put up his numbers and his lower seeded teams lost to teams that were simply better.

His teams weren't necessarily worse than the 02/03/04 Duncan teams, or the late 00's Mavs teams. People like to say KG's support cast was horrible, but he had Brandon, Marbury, Wally Sczerbiak, Gugliotta, Joe Smith, Nesterovich, Billups, Joe Smith, and Hudson. Those aren't great players by any stretch of imagination, but those are not that much better than Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Barrea, and Bass.

[QUOTE=FkLA;6891950]Some people like to act like he absolutely needs two HOFs to win. Im saying that is far from fact. There is a big gap between what he had in Minny and what he had in Boston, I think he couldve enjoyed success with a supporting cast that was somewhere in between that gap. His '04 team is a great example.

If by success you mean a championship, then I doubt it. Even with a healthy Cassell, I can't see the Wolves getting past the Pistons. If by success you mean deep playoff runs, then he did it in 04. The 05 Wolves had the same team, but with Cassell and Sprewell getting older, didn't go anywhere.

Well, Pierce plays in the perimeter and handles the rock a lot more man. Of course he'll have more assists. I still maintain that at worst it was 1a and 1b, and that taking into account overall impact it was KGs team tbh.

He handled the ball more, but even with that metric, nobody on the Mavs compared to Dirk from an offensive standpoint, and nobody on the Spurs compared to Duncan in offensive output. Not to mention the entire Spurs offense was designed around Duncan until around 2005, and the entire Mavs offense designed around Dirk since a long time ago. I can't think of any successful offense that was built around Garnett.

[ambchang]

Ive already been laughed off for arguing this (from the same topic) but Ill ask it again. Where are the cheap easy to find defensive anchors? Cuban was able to find and keep one for all of one of dirk's 15 years in the league. Doesnt seem cheap or easy to me. If they are so cheap and easy to find, then why are 25 teams desperate to find one? Duncan, KG, Chandler, Howard, Noah, Bogut, Asik, Gasol, Hibbert, who am I missing, Lebron? Larry sanders ? What are their average salaries? If you are going to consider trash like shawn bradley/dampier a defensive anchor equivalent to a KG, then why shouldnt I do the same with lamarcus aldridge or a monta ellis' offense and make it equivalent to dirk's? Bottom line is that good bigs are extremely rare these days, and I would say especially defensive bigs. much easier to find aldridge/lee/griffin types who love to score but suck on D. of the guys I listed, NONE are comparable to prime Duncan / KG.

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team. half of the guys that I listed are either good all around players (gasol / howard / hibbert / bogut) or straight up HOF legends (duncan, KG, lebron). The cheapest of all of them is sanders and I think he is clearly a step below the others; then Asik at 8M per. all the rest are 12-14M+ per year. I just dont get this theory of GOOD defensive bigs being cheap and easy. I think nowadays its much easier to find wings that can score pretty damn well, though obviously not with dirk's 7ft advantage.

Cheap as in compared to players who can carry a team offensively. Who can do that? Lebron, Kobe, Melo, Rose (when healthy). Can't think of anyone who is a Dirk equivalent.

Also, you are comparing KG to defensive bigs. I am not doing that. I am comparing KG's defense to Dirk's offense. The argument is that, comparatively, KG's defense could be replicated easier than Dirk's offense. Your list just illustrated that.

[nowhereman523]

historically yes I'd agree. But definitely not for the last 10 years. Part of that is the rules have changed. Another part is that defenders will never have the fame, glory, contracts and groupies of scorers. But for a good solid 10 years the trend has been consistently in that direction- bigs are harder to find and therefore way more expensive regardless of talent, and most are better at scoring than defending, at the same time that perimeter scorers are becoming disposable. so at least in terms of availability / price, I dont see the argument but obviously a lot of those perimeter scorers are inefficient as and not at all comparable to someone like dirk or pierce.

That's missing the point. Teams can still be championship-caliber without a transcendent defensive player, as it's much more guided by schemes. They almost never do without a transcendent offensive player.

in an earlier post you referenced the 2003 head to head match up, these were the rosters from the head to head series:
mavs (4th seed 57-25 record, 58M roster)
nowitzki (all nba 2nd team, all star)
finley
nash (3rd team all nba, all star)
van exel
lafrentz
najera
adrian griffin
greg buckner
wang zhi zhi

vs
wolves (5th seed, 50-32, 55M roster)
garnett (1st team defense, 2nd team all nba, all star)
billups
szcerbiak (all star)
rasho
peeler
gary trent
joe smith
sam mitc
felipe lopez

you cant possibly argue that the wolves had a better team and the difference maker was nowitzki v garnett; nowitzki just used his HC advantage and superior roster to win a series he was supposed to win (the same way that KG did in 08). and you cant argue otherwise when stephen jackson and jason richardson neutralized dirk's super offense in 07, despite the warriors being an 8th seed with no all stars and the mavs being 1st, having the mvp, the COY, 2 all stars. you just cant cherry pick like that.

Again missing the point, that in the head to head, KG's single greatest asset was of no consequence. I have no idea why KG, when he was on Nowitzki, couldn't slow the guy down individually, or why KG, when he wasn't on Nowitzki, was kept off Dirk while he was going off.

edit: just rewatched this to refresh my memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw. It's amazing how many times KG was either way out of position on Dirk, or was being used to guard Lafrentz or Najera. KG's world beater defense was somewhere between ineffective and nonfactor.

[Larry33Legend]

Dirk doesn't have as many rings as Tim but they definitely belong in the same tier imho. and just like my Jacob said, Dirk refused to move elsewhere even during our darkest years. Dirk's always been a mav in-heart and he's been sticking with his team through thick and thin. KG had another two superstars playing alongside him the year he rang and he wasn't even the best player on that team, while the 2nd best player on 11' mavs squad was JET? TC, or Jason Kidd? Them all were just role players imho. It's fair to say Dirk is the only superstar in modern basketball who has won the NBA championship with no other superstar in the supporting cast (04' pistons had no real superstar at all)

Say what? KG was like 3rd in MVP voting that year.

[Larry33Legend]

KG had the same impact Big Daddy Tyson had on the defensive end and chipped in 20 ppg on the other end. A whopping one point less than what Pierce averaged--yall act like Pierce was averaging 30 and KG 15 or something.

The Finals MVP is not all that different than Parker getting it over Duncan in 07 tbh.

Actually, KG averaged more PPG than Pierce in the Playoffs that year. I don't know what crack pipe people who think Pierce was the best player are smoking, and Pierce is one of my all-time favorites.

[Larry33Legend]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?

Factually incorrect. Four all 1st teams, three 2nd teams, two 3rd teams.

[FkLA]

But you'd have to admit that that's a lot of shots from outside for an inside player. The point is, you originally said Duncan didn't close games, he did. I think this thread has gone off topic.

Originally assumed 'closing' was referring to last second situations. Your definition is different than that (I dont necessarily disagree with it). My response was that if you considered that closing than KG has done his share of it as well.

No doubt. I am not saying KG is a Dirk sidekick, but he is not, or at least no demonstrated that he is, a #1 scoring option, that's all I am saying. I am not comparing KG to Chandler, I am comparing him to Dirk.

I think hes demonstrated that he can be 1a/1b. He cant be the clear cut #1 option like Dirk was but 1a/1b aint too shabby.

Youre not comparing him to Chandler but you are saying a defensive anchor is easier to find than an offensive anchor (Dirk). That maybe true, but is an offensive anchor easier to find than a defensive anchor that can also be 1b and give you 20+ on the other end ?

His teams weren't necessarily worse than the 02/03/04 Duncan teams, or the late 00's Mavs teams. People like to say KG's support cast was horrible, but he had Brandon, Marbury, Wally Sczerbiak, Gugliotta, Joe Smith, Nesterovich, Billups, Joe Smith, and Hudson. Those aren't great players by any stretch of imagination, but those are not that much better than Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Barrea, and Bass.

KGs casts were horrible.

But lets go along with it and say they werent any worse than what Dirk had in the late 00s. How did Dirk close out the decade? Two first round exits and a series win over the Spurs (without Ginobili)--is that any better than what KG did? How does that prove Dirk is easier to build around and that if he had similar casts throughout his career he wouldve enjoyed more success than KG did ?

If by success you mean a championship, then I doubt it. Even with a healthy Cassell, I can't see the Wolves getting past the Pistons. If by success you mean deep playoff runs, then he did it in 04. The 05 Wolves had the same team, but with Cassell and Sprewell getting older, didn't go anywhere.

Unlikely they beat the Pistons in '04, I agree. The East was weak for most other years though, if KG enjoyed similar casts throughout his time in Minny and managed to get out of the West its probable he ends up with a win. That notion seems laughable since the Wolves were never really close other than that one year but again his casts were terrible. Give him solid help and who knows.

BTW that 05 team on top of being older, also had Cassell coming off the injury and Spree holding out for a new contract. Not exactly the same environment Dirk and Duncan enjoyed.

He handled the ball more, but even with that metric, nobody on the Mavs compared to Dirk from an offensive standpoint, and nobody on the Spurs compared to Duncan in offensive output. Not to mention the entire Spurs offense was designed around Duncan until around 2005, and the entire Mavs offense designed around Dirk since a long time ago. I can't think of any successful offense that was built around Garnett.

Both Dirk and Duncan are clear cut #1 options. Im not trying to argue that KG is one as well, simply that he wasnt necessarily a #2 in '08 but rather a 1a/1b.

Couple that with what he does on the other end and that leads back to the original thread topic, and why I take him over Dirk.

[Chief Brody]

Didn't Ced Ceballos have as many Alpha playoff series wins as KG?

[BatManu20]

KG no doubt. Dirk's better offensively obviously but KG in his prime was a monster who controlled both ends of the court. And I hate the guy, but it's the truth. He was just stuck on a God awful team. His rebounding and defensive dominance put him over Dirk imo. People forget how bad Dirk was on that side of the ball for most of his career. It was until about 3 or 4 years ago that he became a decent defender. I remember Duncan would torch him in the post every time they they played the Mavs. But Dirk would put up 25-30 too with hi perimeter shooting. It's close, but KG > Dirk.

[Chief Brody]

And unsurprisingly enough he got out of the first round and made the WCF. Cassell was injured during that run too, he was playing PG at times in those WCF. Oh and how about Trenton Hassell? I remember when people used to call him Minny's Bowen.

He got out of the first round as the first seed that year. Nice accomplishment, tbh

If KG did less screaming and chest pounding he wouldn't be as remembered or beloved.

[FkLA]

^Better than what Dirk did with the 1st seed Mavs his MVP year imo.

[Findog]

You could make an argument for either guy. KG was good on offense and great on defense. Dirk was great on offense and for large swaths of his career terrible on D, although at his peak he was decent within Dallas' schemes. So that's the "KG was more of a two-way player and had crappier supporting casts in Minnesota than Dirk did in Dallas" line. Also, he commands a lot of respect and submission from his teammates. They buy into what he's selling and generally play hard and smart for him. He's demanding on his teammates and very much a leader type. Dirk is not a guy who leads like that. Not saying Dirk isn't a leader in his own way, but he's more of a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett, and I want my best player to be more of an alpha/Type A sort of personality, like KG and Kobe.

Then you look at KG's le, he wasn't necessarily their best player, and his two best teammates were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Dirk won a le where his best teammates were Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler, and he went through Kobe, Durant and Lebron to do it. Everybody talks about "stretch 4s" now but all of those guys are just shooters. Dirk is so much more than that. His impact on the offensive side of the game and the way defenses have to adjust and plan for him make his offense every bit as impactful as KG's defense, and with the rules changes, maybe even more important. Dirk led a team to a le, whereas KG was more of a group effort.

[baseline bum]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no ing way KG could've topped that.

Pretty much this

[Chief Brody]

^Better than what Dirk did with the 1st seed Mavs his MVP year imo.

No argument here

[Findog]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no ing way KG could've topped that.

It's hard to imagine KG winning a le with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as his best supporting players, but then again, a Garnett/Chandler frontcourt would probably only give up 80 points a game. They wouldn't need to be the in' 7 seconds or less Suns to win games.

[FkLA]

1.	Kobe Bryant, LAL	82	1100
2.	Chris Paul, NO	28	894
3.	Kevin Garnett, BOS	15	670
4.	LeBron James, CLE	1	438
5.	Dwight Howard, ORL	--	60
6.	Amare Stoudemire, PHX	--	27
7.	Tim Duncan, SA	--	25
8.	Tracy McGrady, HOU	--	19
9.	Steve Nash, PHX	--	18
10.	Manu Ginobili, SA	--	9
11.	Dirk Nowitzki, DAL	--	5
12.	Deron Williams, UTA	--	4
13.	Carmelo Anthony, DEN	--	3
14.	Paul Pierce, BOS	--	1
15.	Rasheed Wallace, DET	--	1
16.	Carlos Boozer, UTA	--	1
17.	Antawn Jamison, WAS	--	1

This KG wasnt the Celtics best player argument is pure nonsense and needs to stop tbh.

Carlos Boozer, Rasheed Wallace and Antawn Jamison had the same amount of MVP votes as Pierce did in '08. No doubt, the gap between KG and Pierce was alot smaller than the gap between Dirk and JET/Chandler...but still KG was unquestionably the best player on the Cs. Not even sure how its even debatable or 'not clear'.

[Chief Brody]

Another thing that hurts KG in this argument is that there's no real iconic playoff moment or game that you can attribute to him. He was good in the 2008 finals, but I remember Leon Powe's Game 2 and P.J. Brown's overall contributions more than I do KG's. In 2010 I remember Big Baby and Little Nate standing out more than him. Most iconic KG playoff moment I can think of is Peeler's elbow tbh

[FkLA]

[Chief Brody]

There's no way you remembered that, stop lying, b

[FkLA]

There's no way you remembered that, stop lying, b

That may be the problem, you s have probably forgot just how dominant KG was in his Minny days tbh.

[Chief Brody]

^
They were down 3-1 and the series was essentially over when he did that. Color me unimpressed.

[Rogue]

You could make an argument for either guy. KG was good on offense and great on defense. Dirk was great on offense and for large swaths of his career terrible on D, although at his peak he was decent within Dallas' schemes. So that's the "KG was more of a two-way player and had crappier supporting casts in Minnesota than Dirk did in Dallas" line. Also, he commands a lot of respect and submission from his teammates. They buy into what he's selling and generally play hard and smart for him. He's demanding on his teammates and very much a leader type. Dirk is not a guy who leads like that. Not saying Dirk isn't a leader in his own way, but he's more of a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett, and I want my best player to be more of an alpha/Type A sort of personality, like KG and Kobe.

Then you look at KG's le, he wasn't necessarily their best player, and his two best teammates were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Dirk won a le where his best teammates were Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler, and he went through Kobe, Durant and Lebron to do it. Everybody talks about "stretch 4s" now but all of those guys are just shooters. Dirk is so much more than that. His impact on the offensive side of the game and the way defenses have to adjust and plan for him make his offense every bit as impactful as KG's defense, and with the rules changes, maybe even more important. Dirk led a team to a le, whereas KG was more of a group effort.

Although Dirk didn't make a name of him for his D, it wasn't like his D was "terrible" or anywhere close to that word imho. The prime KG was the better all-round player and there's no more argument about that, but I do think that Dirk is much closer to the definition of a leader than KG has ever been. Dirk a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett? yet how come one remained on his team throughout his career while the other had to move elsewhere and form a superfriends team to win a ring? KG just ed about his teammates and refs and he's always been dumb like a rock, while Dirk has always been a best friend type of guy to all his teammates and even as a foreigner, he speaks fluent English just like Von Manteufel. I think there's a reason why conference finals is the furtherest KG has ever been as the #1 of his team, imho.

and I'm really enchanted by your return btw, time to re-rally the Mavs Krew and start to regulate things again imho.