NBA: Dirk or KG?

[FkLA]

I am not getting you. Are you saying Kobe, Paul and Garnett > Lebron in 2008? Are you saying Stoudemire was the leader of the SUns in 08 and not Nash?

MVP isnt always handed to the best player, no argument about that.

But its pretty uncommon for the 'best' player on a team to receive 669 less points than the second best player...that was the difference in votes received between KG and Pierce. The difference between Nash and Amare was 9 points, the difference between Duncan and Manu 16 points. Pierce wasnt even considered a Top 5 swingman prior to KG btw.

I didn't hold Wade or Melo in nearly the esteem I hold KG, so those comparables are actually very telling in a negative way. Either way, just another data point among many why I have the guy behind Timmy/Dirk/Barkley/Malone.

You dont hold Wade in the same high esteem? Wade>Dirk you dip .

[Findog]

For the record, I have Dirk slightly ahead of Garnett due to longevity and more overall team success. I just can't get behind the idea that Garnett "wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics" when all of the numbers suggest he was by a fairly decent margin, and by an even larger margin in the Playoffs (leading scorer, rebounder, upped his numbers across the board)

The fact that we even argue over who was the best player on the Celtics in 08 (Pierce or KG) goes to show how much more help Garnett had in his le run than Dirk did in his. Dirk put that team on his back and beat Kobe, Durant and LeBron/Wade in that order. Dirk's le is more impressive than KG, and while it's true that Dirk consistently had better supporting casts in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, his supporting casts were never great.

Who was the second-best player on the 06 team that lost to Miami? Josh Howard. Who was the second-best player on the team that won the le in 11? Tyson Chandler? Jason Terry? He never had anything remotely like Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, or later on those two and a Rondo that had come into his own. Dirk had competent supporting casts, not overwhelming ones. How many All-Stars did he play with? There was Nash and Finley early in his career, and then in his prime Josh Howard and Jason Kidd each made one All-Star team as an injury replacement. How many All-NBA team members did Dirk play with? Not many.

Both won les, both had long careers with high levels of consistent production. It's close, but it's Dirk.

[FkLA]

The fact that we even argue over who was the best player on the Celtics in 08 (Pierce or KG) goes to show how much more help Garnett had in his le run than Dirk did in his. Dirk put that team on his back and beat Kobe, Durant and LeBron/Wade in that order. Dirk's le is more impressive than KG, and while it's true that Dirk consistently had better supporting casts in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, his supporting casts were never great.

Who was the second-best player on the 06 team that lost to Miami? Josh Howard. Who was the second-best player on the team that won the le in 11? Tyson Chandler? Jason Terry? He never had anything remotely like Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, or later on those two and a Rondo that had come into his own. Dirk had competent supporting casts, not overwhelming ones. How many All-Stars did he play with? There was Nash and Finley early in his career, and then in his prime Josh Howard and Jason Kidd each made one All-Star team as an injury replacement. How many All-NBA team members did Dirk play with? Not many.

Both won les, both had long careers with high levels of consistent production. It's close, but it's Dirk.

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

[Findog]

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their les than KG did in his and it's not even close.

[FkLA]

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their les than KG did in his and it's not even close.

So? Dirk had less offensive help than Duncan did his last two les or than Bron did for these two. That doesnt mean Id take '11 Dirk over 05/07 Duncan or 12/13 Bron.

KG happened to win with two HOFs. Theres a huge gap between that and what he had in Minny.

[Larry33Legend]

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their les than KG did in his and it's not even close.

That's a huge exaggeration. Garnett was his teams leading scorer/rebounder in the 2008 Playoffs all while anchoring the defense. People forget how mediocre Pierce and Allen (specifically Allen) were through the first two rounds. Through that stretch Garnett carried the Celtics similarly to how he carried the Timberwolves. It was only in the ECF when they started playing like themselves again (well, outside of Pierce's big Game 7), and Garnett still led them in scoring in that series.

[nowhereman523]

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

You're such a dumbass.

[Rogue]

That's a huge exaggeration. Garnett was his teams leading scorer/rebounder in the 2008 Playoffs all while anchoring the defense. People forget how mediocre Pierce and Allen (specifically Allen) were through the first two rounds. Through that stretch Garnett carried the Celtics similarly to how he carried the Timberwolves. It was only in the ECF when they started playing like themselves again (well, outside of Pierce's big Game 7), and Garnett still led them in scoring in that series.

I think my Findog was simply emphasizing the comparison of quality between the supporting casts Dirk and KG each got during their le runs, rather than the performances of such players in one or two series imho. 11' mavs got a bunch of marginal role players who performed like superstars (JJB, Lincoln and even Peja), not to say the regular ones like Kidd, TC and Marion. But at that point of time, none of them was a legit superstar in the league. TC was offensively limited, Kidd old as and Marion past his prime already. meanwhile, the 08' celtics had 3 superstars, all of who were always franchise players on their respective former teams the seasons prior. We got really lucky that year because our role players all at once happened to play like stars and contributed BIG to our championship run, but they were still role players imho.

[jsandiego]

1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh.

KG isn't the best defensive PF, but he's a close 2nd.

Defensive Rating

Defensive Win Shares

Blocks/Game

Total Blocks

Defensive Rebound Pct

The only category KG has over Duncan is Total Defensive Rebounds, but when you go on a per game basis, Duncan (8.31/game) tops KG (8.13/game) yet again, even though Duncan played with twin towers most of his career where you'd think he'd split more rebounds with the other big man.

And this is just regular season. Playoff Tim Duncan on the defensive end was another level.

[ambchang]

{Stuff we agreed upon removed} ...
This is where we disagree. Spree and Cassell were all-star caliber players but they werent the cream of the crop for their respective positions. Theres a big gap between the casts he had and having elite talent around him--his 2004 squad falls somewhere in the between. Give him something similar throughout his career and his teams have plenty of success.

Alilen was 2nd team all NBA that year, that was pretty much as close to the top as you can get. Sprewell, though he didn't get any honours that year, had arguably his best season since his GSW. He didn't make All-Star that year, but he was definitely worthy. Really, a backcourt any better than that 04 Wolves backcourt would be considered elite. Other than Parker/Ginobili and Billups/Hamilton, there really hasn't been too many backcourts that were better than that 04 Wolves backcourt in the last decade and a half. And as a big man, the most important thing for Garnett has been guards.

I remember them being pretty close and KG openly supporting Spree getting paid. Dont think there was any tension between them, more with management and ownerships unwillingness to open up their pockets. Something that likely wouldnt have been a problem with Cubes.

I wasn't really referring to tension, but more of whether KG was a leader.

1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh. Its not laughable to compare the two since Dirk is one of the best of all-time as well (which is a testament to how dominant his offense is since he isnt a dominant two-way player), but its still pretty clear who the better player is imho. What I do find laughable is the reasoning some of these mavfans use to support their stance--nowhereman is a great example.

I do find KG to be the better player overall, but it's not by much of a margin. But Dirk was just easier to build around. I guess when it really comes down to it, the talent that is required to plug KG's weaknesses are tougher to find than Dirk's.

MVP isnt always handed to the best player, no argument about that.

But its pretty uncommon for the 'best' player on a team to receive 669 less points than the second best player...that was the difference in votes received between KG and Pierce. The difference between Nash and Amare was 9 points, the difference between Duncan and Manu 16 points. Pierce wasnt even considered a Top 5 swingman prior to KG btw.

You dont hold Wade in the same high esteem? Wade>Dirk you dip .

There was no question that Duncan was, and will always be, the most important player on the Spurs in order for it to be successful. Even in the 08 decline year, Duncan was no doubt the leader.

KG was most definitely the more valuable Celtic that year, as he anchored one of the best defenses in league history. That said, Pierce was still the offensive center.

[Ashy Larry]

In their primes, KG. Defensively, it's a no-brainer