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  1. #551
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    It's a medical journal and not a criminal one. Skews it how? You saying we shouldn't care if people want to kill themselves? Taht they shouldn't count? It doesn't distinguish between accidental shootings either.
    Homicides and suicides should definitely be counted separately, that shouldn't even be up for debate.

  2. #552
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    It's a medical journal and not a criminal one. Skews it how? You saying we shouldn't care if people want to kill themselves? Taht they shouldn't count?
    What I'm saying is that suicide shouldn't be used as a reason to remove or inhibit sane, law-abiding gun owners' 2nd Amendment rights.... yes, suicide is a tragic event, but homicide is arguably worse, as it is a direct act of harm committed against another person (as opposed to suicide, where the harm to others is more indirect).... it's just not the same thing, and they should be counted separately....

    If gun homicides were increasing, gun control advocates would have a stronger argument, but they aren't....

  3. #553
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    What I'm saying is that suicide shouldn't be used as a reason to remove or inhibit sane, law-abiding gun owners' 2nd Amendment rights.... yes, suicide is a tragic event, but homicide is arguably worse, as it is a direct act of harm committed against another person (as opposed to suicide, where the harm to others is more indirect).... it's just not the same thing, and they should be counted separately....

    If gun homicides were increasing, gun control advocates would have a stronger argument, but they aren't....
    More people are dying due to guns and again the brady bill and assault weapons ban correlates with that decline in crime of the 90s. That should speak to the efficacy of the law.

    You pass a law meant to curb gun violence and voila gun violence goes down......

  4. #554
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    I would also point out that the assault weapon ban expired in 2004 and what happens to gun violence in 2005? You see an uptick.

  5. #555
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    More people are dying due to guns and again the brady bill and assault weapons ban correlates with that decline in crime of the 90s. That should speak to the efficacy of the law.

    You pass a law meant to curb gun violence and voila gun violence goes down......
    Hardly as cut and dry as you are trying to make it.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did...pons-ban-work/

  6. #556
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    500 Children Die In Hospitals From Gunshot Wounds Every Year


    http://www.alternet.org/500-children...ter916138&t=11

    500 dead kids per year is why the Framers added the 2nd Amendment

    "Don't take my guns, but it's OK if guns take my kids. Freedom!"



  7. #557
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    500 Children Die In Hospitals From Gunshot Wounds Every Year


    http://www.alternet.org/500-children...ter916138&t=11

    500 dead kids per year is why the Framers added the 2nd Amendment


    Plenty of irrelevant links, but not one that even addresses TSA's question.... keep parroting that party line, shill

  8. #558
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    Plenty of irrelevant links, but not one that even addresses TSA's question.... keep parroting that party line, shill
    TSA, she's not worth the effort

    500 dead kids from guns PER YEAR is TOO MANY GUNS causing TOO MANY DEAD KIDS

  9. #559
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    TSA, she's not worth the effort
    Translation: "that damned party line isn't giving me a rebuttal to TSA's facts!"

    500 dead kids from guns PER YEAR is TOO MANY GUNS causing TOO MANY DEAD KIDS
    You are now shifting the goalposts from implying that deaths were increasing to arguing that any death at all is a reason to ban guns....

  10. #560
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    Translation: "that damned party line isn't giving me a rebuttal to TSA's facts!"


    You are now shifting the goalposts from implying that deaths were increasing to arguing that any death at all is a reason to ban guns....
    TSA introduced the increasing/decreasing bull , not me. Talk to her about it.

    More Guns = More Gun Violence, More Gun Deaths

  11. #561
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    More Guns = More Gun Violence, More Gun Deaths
    Once again, with the use of "more," you're implying that gun violence and deaths are on the rise when the data doesn't bear that out, tbh....

  12. #562
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    Once again, with the use of "more," you're implying that gun violence and deaths are on the rise when the data doesn't bear that out, tbh....
    you make the same error as TSA.

  13. #563
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    you make the same error as TSA.
    Please then clarify what you mean by "more".

  14. #564
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    Another result of the sicko USA gun culture: Americans solve problems with murder, what a ing wonderful civilization

    Shot and Killed at Work? It Happened to 375 People Last Year

    Gun advocates have pushed through laws letting people bring their guns to work, storing them in their cars, in 22 states. The NRA says an Alabama version of the law, which went into effect this summer, "extends the current Castle Doctrine to include places of business to ensure the right of self-defense does not end when you enter your business."

    Forcing property owners to allow guns is so intrusive, even an NRA member objected when the laws began surfacing eight years ago. Bob Thornton, a former liquor store owner, actually heckled NRA leader Wayne LaPierre at an Atlanta news conference which announced the campaign. "I really object to the government getting involved to say what's allowed on my property," he said, sporting a "Wayne Never Asked Me" T-shirt.

    Joe Fleming, senior vice president for government affairs at the Georgia Chamber of Commerce agreed in a 2008 newspaper oped. The NRA has "threatened all Georgia senators who fail to fall on bended knee with ‘F's’ on the next NRA re-election scorecard," he wrote. “Those senators who don't suc b to the NRA's bully-tactics, name-calling, temper tantrums, insults and lies will be subjected to election-year retaliation." The Florida Retail Federation and Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida also opposed the coercive gun laws which force property owners to take on risks not their own.


    As always, the NRA tries to make gun carriers victims instead of aggressors. Banning weapons on parking lots “is a wrecking ball for the Second Amendment,” pronounced Wayne LaPierre. “It's also a blueprint for totally eviscerating and nullifying right-to-carry legislation in 38 states in our country," because despite the “cons utional right to have a firearm” carriers “couldn’t stop anywhere.”


    http://admin.alternet.org/speakeasy/...ter916298&t=11

    you're ALL a bunch of gun-industry-suckered sickos



  15. #565
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Please then clarify what you mean by "more".
    Having trouble?

  16. #566
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    Having trouble?
    unregulatd, uncontrolled, wild-ass 300M+ guns in USA is MORE THAN say 25M

  17. #567
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    unregulatd, uncontrolled, wild-ass 300M+ guns in USA is MORE THAN say 25M
    And this "more" gun violence you refer to, more compared to what?

  18. #568
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    Four Ways Stand Your Ground Is Promoting Vigilantism


    1. Stand Your Ground casts aside the long-held duty to retreat. When Sen. Ted Cruz says the obligation to run away from an attacker is contrary to precedent, he is referring to what is known as the “duty to retreat.” As Sullivan explains, the long-held principle that individuals must first attempt escape from a violent situation before using deadly force has been a bedrock of Anglo-American law for two centuries. There has long been one exception to this rule in some states known as the “Castle Doctrine,” which limits the duty to retreat in the home, on the rationale that one should not have to retreat from their own home. But in all other cases, the law has long asked individuals to minimize bodily harm and death as much as possible. That means they have a duty to retreat where they can do so safely. “If it’s unsafe to retreat, nowhere in our history is one required to retreat,” Sullivan writes. Stand Your Ground laws completely eliminate this duty. Sullivan explained his written testimony:
    This emboldens individuals to escalate confrontation, even deadly confrontation, whereas an alternative rule would decrease the likelihood of deadly exchanges. The Trayvon Martin matter is a case in point. The very existence of this law emboldened Mr. Zimmerman to disregard the command of the 911 dispatcher and follow Trayvon Martin, arrogating law enforcement —what should be a public function—to himself. This private law enforcement at ude, made possible and emboldened by Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, coupled with a permissive concealed carry law, was the “but for” cause of Trayvon Martin’s death. But for the fact that Zimmerman exited his vehicle that evening, Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

    2. The law grants blanket criminal and civil immunity. As Association of Prosecuting Attorneys President David LaBahn explains, criminal law rarely grants total, pretrial immunity. The few other cir stances in which total immunity is granted involve cooperation with law enforcement officers. In most cases, defendants can raise a self-defense claim at trial — when the facts and law are given a full airing, and where mitigating cir stances may yield conviction of a lesser criminal charge, such as involuntary homicide rather than murder. If a defendant requests a pretrial Stand Your Ground hearing, and the judge finds that the defendant reasonably feared imminent bodily harm, the judge can grant immunity from any and all charges before the trial begins. And in many cases, the law even provides immunity from arrest, as was initially the case with George Zimmerman.

    3. The law presumes a killer’s fear was reasonable. One seeming limitation on Stand Your Ground laws is that the killer must have reasonably feared bodily harm. But in Florida, as in several other states, the law now presumes reasonableness if that killing took place in one’s home or vehicle. This was not a feature of the original Castle Doctrine. And it abrogates yet another of the fundamental limiting criminal law principles that took a back seat when the Stand Your Ground law was passed.


    4. The law fosters self-perpetuating violence. Promoting vigilantism is one consequence of Stand Your Ground laws. But as Sullivan warns, behavioral changes may not be limited to those who want the right to Stand Your Ground. Particularly given the facts of the Trayvon Martin case, he warns that young black boys motivated by fear of adults like George Zimmerman may feel compelled to Stand their ground, too, in a cycle of shoot first, or be shot. “To be sure, this is not a world that I want my son to grow up in,” Sullivan says. But if he lived in a Stand Your Ground state, he said, he would have no choice but to advise his own young black son, ironically named Trey, to “shoot first” and ask questions later if he feels threatened by a stranger. “I would rather not counsel him in using lethal force when being profiled by vigilantes. That said, however, I would rather my Trey be alive and able to argue that he ‘stood his ground’ than dead and portrayed by lawyers and media alike as the personification of a stereotypical black male criminal.”

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...g-vigilantism/



  19. #569
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    And this "more" gun violence you refer to, more compared to what?
    eg, 100s of accidentally dead kids and youth per year is MORE THAN zero dead

  20. #570
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    eg, 100s of accidentally dead kids and youth per year is MORE THAN zero dead
    For 's sake, you've got nothing better than "it's more than zero"?

  21. #571
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    For 's sake, you've got nothing better than "it's more than zero"?
    As a gun-totin, 2nd-amendment-huggin, water-the-tree gun fellator, what's your acceptable number of, eg, dead babies, kids, youth killed in gun accidents?

  22. #572
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    For 's sake, you've got nothing better than "it's more than zero"?
    I guess he doesn't realize that this same "logic" could easily be applied to pretty much anything that can kill someone?

  23. #573
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    I guess he doesn't realize that this same "logic" could easily be applied to pretty much anything that can kill someone?
    eg, heavily regulated, mandatory-insured, safety-engineered cars are not intended to kill someone, but effectively unregulated guns are intended as tools for killing.

    your logic sucks

  24. #574
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    eg, heavily regulated, mandatory-insured, safety-engineered cars are not intended to kill someone, but effectively unregulated guns are intended as tools for killing.
    Doesn't matter, one death by car is too many.... ban all cars!

    /boutons "logic"

  25. #575
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    Doesn't matter, one death by car is too many.... ban all cars!

    /boutons "logic"
    Ironic you'd take issue bit bd's logic as your response is a strawman. No one, including boutons, is suggesting all guns should be banned.

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