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If the choices were Lebron or Pippen's dog, I'd have to go with the latter.
Pippen
LeBron
Idk
Who would you rather build your team around?
If the choices were Lebron or Pippen's dog, I'd have to go with the latter.
Scottie Pippen never scored more than 1720 points in a season. Lebron has already done that 8 times in 10 seasons - and the other two were his rookie year and the lockout-shortened year.
The only way you can honestly vote for Pippen is by basing your argument on hypotheticals. What if Pippen was given the chance to be top dog? But the problem is, you simply can't support an argument purely on hypotheticals.
/discussion
I think that's a bit unfair considering Pippen played under Jordan, who averaged 30 points a game throughout his career. An out of prime Pippen did average 21, 6 rebounds and 6 assists when Jordan retired. Imagine what an in prime alpha-Pippen could do.
I'm not totally discrediting LeBron, but there's more to Pippen than his scoring total. He was the best wing defender of all time. Check out this video:
Pippen was great and underappreciated, no question. But is there a single thing on the basketball court that Pippen could unquestionably do better than LeBron? Not really. LeBron is fully capable of dominating a game without scoring a bunch of points either.
Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a ing beast, people who watched him know that.
Defense? And prime Pippen is easily the better rebounder.
When Lebron NEEDS to dial in and focus on defense, he plays as good of defense as anyone, and is as solid of a rebounder for a guy his size that you can find.at "easily the better rebounder" when Lebron has better career average of RPG, a higher TRB%, and noticably higher DRB%, while Pippen had a higher ORB% (which I will address in my next paragraph).
It's a bit easier to spend all of your energy in a game playing defense and rebounding, like Pippen could, when you aren't relied on to be the #1 offensive option, both as a scorer, and for running plays. Pippen could score, but was not relied on offensively in the same way Lebron or MJ is/was. So he could focus on those areas more. If Lebron was put in the same position Pippen was in, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he could be considered the greatest overall defender ever (a le that Pippen currently holds), and a MUCH more dominant rebounder than Pippen. Lebron has equal or greater IQ to Pippen, but is even more athletically gifted.
"Career average", son Pippen played til 39, prime Pippen was putting up 7-9 boards every game along with 5-8 assists and 3 steals, it's a lot closer than you think.When Lebron NEEDS to dial in and focus on defense, he plays as good of defense as anyone, and is as solid of a rebounder for a guy his size that you can find.
It's a bit easier to spend all of your energy in a game playing defense and rebounding, like Pippen could, when you aren't relied on to be the #1 offensive option, both as a scorer, and for running plays. Pippen could score, but was not relied on offensively in the same way Lebron or MJ is/was. So he could focus on those areas more. If Lebron was put in the same position Pippen was in, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he could be considered the greatest overall defender ever (a le that Pippen currently holds), and a MUCH more dominant rebounder than Pippen. Lebron has equal or greater IQ to Pippen, but is even more athletically gifted.
How do you compare their IQs? How much did you actually watch Pippen in the 90s? I damn sure know you couldn't watch most games so if you ever did see any games live you only saw the playoffs. Pippen was a highly gifted player and one of the most athletic ever...His defensive numbers speak for themselves.
Lebron can lock players down when he NEEDS to? Who has he locked down? KD put up 30 ppg on above 50% shooting against him in the Finals, Paul George had a good series(19 ppg on 47,5% FG and 44% from 3) against him in the ECF, Kawhi put up a double-double in the Finals on high efficiency. Lebron has only locked down 6'1-6'3 PGs as far as I know.
Answer: 6 out of 6 >>>> 2*** out of 4
*** Denotes 28.2 seconds of chokery
Pippen never averaged 9+ RPG. Only twice did he average 8+ in a season. Lebron already has once, and probably will again.
Pippen only averaged 7 APG once in his career, while Lebron averages over 7 APG almost every season.
1) I've seen my fair share of Pippen.
2) I don't see any reason to say Pippen was higher than Lebron. I think there are more cases that can be made that Lebron's is higher than Pippen's though, even though it's virtually irrelevant. Point is, both are/were VERY HIGH IQ players.
Neat. LeBron is a noticably more gifted player, and probably IS the most athletic player ever. If that has so much bearing on how good his defense is capable of being, then that only feeds further into my point that if LeBron wasn't relied on as much as he is for offense, and was able to spend the majority of his energy focusing on defense, rebounding, and filling roles where needed, he could do everything Pippen did, but almost certainly better.
Even though this is a highly misleading load of crap and you know it, I can play this game too.
Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars consistently kicked the out of Chicago for several years. Mark Price has a nice series. Kobe consistently gave Pippen fits. Karl Malone consistently averaged high scoring totals. Kemp had a real nice series. Penny Hardaway had a nice series. For a guy who is supposed to be the greatest and most versatile defender ever, there sure were a lot of different players who scored well and efficiently against his teams... I guess that means Pippen can't lock down anyone consistently. At least by your re ed standards, Lebron was able to lock down some PGs.
Oh wait, I forgot, most everyone I named, and most everyone you named (except for Leonard who wasn't even being guarded by Lebron consistently, and mainly only got junk/transition points and wide open 3s) were star caliber players, all of whom are/were fantastic scorers. Even against elite defenders, star scorers will simply find ways to score. Offensive players ALWAYS have an advantage over any defender. That's a fact, and nothing to hold against upper echelon defenders.
Would it really be fair to say that Tim Duncan is a crap defender simply because in most games and basically every playoff series he played against Dirk, Dirk was able to score at will and efficiently, to the point that the Spurs wouldn't even allow Tim to guard Dirk? Would it be fair to say Kevin Garnett was a crap defender for basically the same reasons? Of course not. Dirk was a fantastic scorer, and it just wouldn't make a lot of sense to have Timmy constantly guarding him, especially to prevent Tim from getting into foul trouble, since the Spurs are so dependent on him. Same for KG and the teams he played for.
Likewise, the same goes for guys like Lebron, MJ, and MANY others. Just because they didn't spend all game long guarding elite scorers, doesn't mean they aren't capable of playing an extremely high level of defense. And just because an elite scorer had a good game or a good series against them, doesn't diminish the fact that they are still elite defenders.
We both agree that Lebron is the better overall player and he's more gifted athletically. The only issue I have is that you say that Lebron is better or just as good in every facet of the game, which is just not true. Pippen in the 1st three-peat was putting up Lebron numbers for 3 straight Finals, only that instead of 25-28 ppg he was putting up 21 ppg.
I'm not really denying anything you have to say, but Pippen put up comparable numbers with much smaller usage rates. Even during the time MJ wasn't on the Bulls, Pippen had a smaller usage rate than rookie Lebron, I have no doubt that if Pippen hogged the ball more and took 2-3 more shots per game, his stats would be same, albeit with worse efficiency. That's all I have to say really.
Yeah, I'd build around Lebron, but if I needed to pair MJ with another player, I'd rather go with Pippen, as he has a flawless track record as a 2nd banana to MJ. Lebron was a 2nd banana in the Finals in 2011, and he stunk it up, and he almost did the same thing in 2013 up until Game 6 as a 1st option(in which he also turned the ball over twice in the last minute, throwing the game away until Kawhi and Manu missed key free throws and Jesus hit a miracle 3).
I hate Lebron and watched plenty of Pippen. Pippen was one of the greats of all time but he doesn't compare to Lebron. However Jordan is obviously better than both.
it's an easy choice imho, like if you're a who would you get married to? An alpha or a beta?
pippen doesnt have the stats like lebron or able to play the 4 and 5 positions cause thats not his job, his reb numbers are nothing excited about; then again reboundin more than the position avg is a luxury not a negative against pippens production...seriously its not his job to go and grab monster rebound numbers if u have 2 competant bigman clowns on ur team.
everyone would take lebron cause he can play multiple positions
but pippen does have a case if u can build around him or have him as a missing piece to a contending team
solid post game, a nice hook shot, could hit the mid-range shot, that intensity on the defensive end...
I wouldn't go that far. You act like Pip was some kind of scrub.
- Pip was unquestionably the better defender of the two. He regularly locked down the opposition's best perimeter threat - not MJ. Pip was probably the most versatile defender in NBA history.
- Pip led the 1994 Bulls to game 7 of the ECF. His starting SGs? JoJo English and Pete Myers. 55-27 was their RS record. The a East wasn't no punk back then either. All of this, while dad killer was masquerading as a baseball player during his Stern-mandated timeout because of his gambling problem.
- if he played with MJ, his name would be LeRobin James. No way would he eat first. So why hold it against Pip?
For the young punks that never seen Pip play, here you go:
Pip was a mother er. MJ didn't win without himPERIOD.
Wasn't it Game 7 ECSF? But Pip was a beast yes. There's no way Lebron could dominate the game without scoring, just look at 2011 Finals.
Heel is right Pippen is the better defender. But I would rather have Lebron's passing (Pippen was excellent at creating too) and even though Pip carried a team to 55 wins ...
He also pouted like a baby when Phil drew up the winning playoff play for Kukoc ... Lebron would of NEVER done that which is both good and bad ... but Lebron seems to be the better leader. And was the best player on 3 straight finals teams. As great as Pip was ... this not really as close as some say tbh.
Lebron is in GOAT conversations Pippen was in HOF conversations (before induction) HUGE difference.
I just don't agree that LeBron is the better passer and is sure not the better leader.
Bill Wennington: When there was a problem, if there was something you disagreed about. It wasn't MJ or Phil you went to, it was Pippen.
Buehler: Pippen made everyone on the floor great. He would make defensive schemes that Phil would get mad about and Pippen would come in and say 'Hey Phil, I told him to do that'
Reggie Miller: Pippen would score 5 points and completely dominate the game.
That's why I don't like looking at stats to make these decisions. There's so much more to the game than stats. Even then, Pippen was legit.
Also, I'd like to point out you are wrong about Pippen "being in the HoF discussion". Pippen was voted one of the 50 best players of all time, and recently was named in the best 30 of all time.
Averaging 7 rebounds out of your prime with MJ and Dennis on your team (Dennis averaged about 18 rebounds a game with Chicago) is crazy
This is a ridiculous question. While I admit Pippen was the better defender, and I would say equal passer/facilitator, Lebron does so many other things better.
Lebron is obviously the better scorer and creator on offense, and slightly better rebounder.
Pippen is one of my favourite players of all time (more so than MJ), but this isn't even a fair comparison. Comparing Pippen to Lebron is like comparing Jason Kidd to Magic Johnson. While both are all time greats, one of them is clearly not as good as the other.
Pippen's career high was 13.1 WS, and 0.209 WS/48. Lebron James' only season with < 13.1 WS was his rookie season, and even eclipsed that number in the lockout season where he played 62 games. Lebron had a WS/48 < 0.209 in only three seasons. He also led the league in WS and WS/48 five times in his career.
In conclusion, no contest.
You still haven't given me any reason to believe that if LeBron didn't have to carry such a massive scoring load, and could play the same role on a team as Pippen, that he couldn't do everything as well as, or better than Pippen did.
Oh, and don't say Pippen had a flawless track record. He had his fair share of failures along with MJ before they started winning les. Not to mention faking a freaking migraine to excuse why he was playing so horribly in G7 against Detroit in the 90 playoffs. Funny that he never had any standout migraine issues at any other point in his career, except for that game. Generally, if you get migraines, you get them frequently. Not just once.
What happened in 2011 and a good portion of the 2013 finals are the EXACT SAME THING that happened to MJ during the years of "The Jordan Rules" against Detroit. Detroit cared about one thing, and that was making life miserable for MJ. They sent constant double and triple teams at him basically any time he tried to score and were extremely physical with him. The result? While MJ scored plenty of points, he did so quite inefficiently, and in the process took his teammates out of the game, since he was so insistent on forcing himself to score, instead of involving his teammates. When he finally figured out the importance of setting his teammates up, and how it will in turn make the game easier for him, they ended up sweeping the Pistons.
The Mavs and Spurs both defended Lebron the same way. But Lebron never tried to force things the way MJ did. He always knew how to play the game the right way. In 2011, Miami simply had no consistent answer for Dirk or Carlisle's coaching, and were simply not as good or complete of a team as they were the following 2 years when they won championships after picking up some better defenders and shooters.
In 2013, Wade played like garbage for most of the series and often hindered Lebron's effectiveness, because it made it much easier for the Spurs to send extra help defense at him. Notice that in game 6, when Lebron went nuts on his run, it was when Wade was out of the game, and they had another shooter in. As soon as Wade came back in, they were sending waves of defenders at Lebron, and it resulted in some missed shots and turnovers on his part. Then in game 7, Wade finally played well, and no surprise, Lebron was able to dominate from start to end. Honestly, if you replaced Wade with a guy like Pippen, the Heat probably win in 5 games. Wade's ineffectiveness was a major reason for Lebron's struggles early in the 2013 finals.
2011 Finals is a good example, Lebron couldn't score and they made him pass, and he ended up costing the Heat the series, he couldn't lock down Dirk nor Terry nor anyone really, old man Dirk was killing them and Bron who "can play and guard all 5 positions" couldn't do about it. The best part about that series was the dagger 3 from Terry, 6'2 guy pulling up on Lebron's face and swishing that shot, cmon son. Jason Terry outplayed Lebron james in a Finals series, just think about that.
Btw, Wade put up 26.5 ppg 7.0 reb 5.2 ast on 54% shooting that series, yeah, they crowded Lebron and he did make some good decisions, but ultimately he had a worse series any other superstar has had in his prime. They often left him open from 3 and gave him the long 2, he couldn't hit a shot, it was 2007 all over again.
In no way have I done such a thing. The very first thing I said in the thread was "Pippen was great and underappreciated"
I just posted plenty of proof that he didn't always "lock down" the oppositions best threat. I agree he always took on the tougher defensive assignments, is probably the most versatile defender ever, and one of the greatest defenders ever. I NEVER said otherwise. I just said that since he wasn't relied on to be the scoring option that guys like MJ or Lebron were/are, he could focus more of his energy on that end of the court. But MJ and Lebron both have proved throughout their careers, that when its the final 3-5 minutes of a close game, they immediately call off whomever is defending the top wing scorer of the opposing team, take them on themselves, and generally did/does a very good job defending them.
And he did a wonderful job leading that team. No question about it. With MJ gone, it allowed some of their more talented players to shine more, like Horace Grant (a highly underrated and under-appreciated player during his time, very much like Pippen) and BJ Armstrong, while they also made some very good offensive additions to the team with Kukoc and Kerr.
No one is holding it against Pippen. The only thing people are holding against Pippen in this discussion, is the simple fact that LeBron James is an unquestionably superior basketball player.
And if Lebron did play with MJ, and was his second option, I fully believe that he would be better than Pippen in nearly every way that Pippen was great. About the only thing Pippen was superior at, was having more refined post moves.
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