NBA: Pippen or LeBron?

[AchillesHeel]

And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

[Phillip]

2011 Finals is a good example, Lebron couldn't score and they made him pass, and he ended up costing the Heat the series, he couldn't lock down Dirk nor Terry nor anyone really, old man Dirk was killing them and Bron who "can play and guard all 5 positions" couldn't do about it. The best part about that series was the dagger 3 from Terry, 6'2 guy pulling up on Lebron's face and swishing that shot, cmon son. Jason Terry outplayed Lebron james in a Finals series, just think about that.

Btw, Wade put up 26.5 ppg 7.0 reb 5.2 ast on 54% shooting that series, yeah, they crowded Lebron and he did make some good decisions, but ultimately he had a worse series any other superstar has had in his prime. They often left him open from 3 and gave him the long 2, he couldn't hit a shot, it was 2007 all over again.

Has there ever been any single player to stop Dirk from scoring? You think Pippen would have done any better?

Jason Terry simply caught fire in the final couple games, after being pretty mediocre to awful for most of the series. When a jump-shooting scorer catches fire, no defender can do much about it other than weather the storm and hope you can limit his touches.

It's funny how you continue to point out Lebron's failures, and not acknowledging any of Pippen's, as if Pippen was a flawless defender, when that is not the case and he got his pushed in plenty of times by other fantastic scorers, much like Lebron did and every other great defender in NBA history has.

And Wade put those numbers up in that series because Dallas pretty much allowed him to have whatever he wanted. Just as long as Lebron didn't go off. It was clear that was their goal all series. You almost never saw them send extra help defense at Wade the way they did to Lebron. Even Cuban acknowledged that was their gameplan all series.

[Phillip]

And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

No one ever said that Lebron was as good or better of a scorer than MJ. Seems your focus this entire time is to dismiss LeBron, as it seems that your attacks and my replies have nothing more to do with "LeBron vs. Pippen", as opposed to "my personal bull vendetta against Lebron because he kicked my team's ass in the Finals"

[AchillesHeel]

Has there ever been any single player to stop Dirk from scoring? You think Pippen would have done any better?

Jason Terry simply caught fire in the final couple games, after being pretty mediocre to awful for most of the series. When a jump-shooting scorer catches fire, no defender can do much about it other than weather the storm and hope you can limit his touches.

It's funny how you continue to point out Lebron's failures, and not acknowledging any of Pippen's, as if Pippen was a flawless defender, when that is not the case and he got his pushed in plenty of times by other fantastic scorers, much like Lebron did and every other great defender in NBA history has.

And Wade put those numbers up in that series because Dallas pretty much allowed him to have whatever he wanted. Just as long as Lebron didn't go off. It was clear that was their goal all series. You almost never saw them send extra help defense at Wade the way they did to Lebron. Even Cuban acknowledged that was their gameplan all series.

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason ing Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.



Just look at these ty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the ing ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's ing pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

[Killakobe81]

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason ing Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.



Just look at these ty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the ing ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's ing pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

I think Lebron as a defender is a bit overrated especially if comparing to Pippen, Rodman, Cooper and Bowen. He is a better defender than most players in the GOAT conversation Magic, Bird Kareem ... but Prippen was imho a better defender.
But Pipp NEVER had to carry a team and a coach (pipp had PJ) to a Finals like Lebron did ... And Im pretty sure Pippen wasn't as amazing on defense (IIRC) during the one year he carried the bulls during MJ's retirement.

[Killakobe81]

And btw, as much as I admire Lebron and his game. He has choked at times. He still has a ugly post game. he is a slave to stats. But despite those flaws he still is one of the best passers in the game. An athletic freak with a high level of skill. Unstoppable in the open court. A much improved jump shooter and a high level if a bit overrated defender. HE still has outside shot at GOAT potential and is still in or near his prime.

It just annoys me when people act like criticizing a part of his game is blasphemy. I criticized a jumper he took in the playoffs last year and Lebron nut riders attacked me and brought up Kobe ...and that had nothing to do with my point. Just because Lebron is the best he cant be touched? In my book even Mj had flaws. Kobe has plenty and Magic was was not flawless either. when you are talking about GOATS especially when comparing you HAVE to mention their warts too.

But back to the topic. Lebron has eclipsed Pippen in every way except as a defender. Lebron to me is an even better passer tbh ...Pippen probably a better dribbler/facilitator. The way I see it Lebron has some Bird/Magic vision. Pippen was great initiator of offense but I never saw THAT. Plus he was the initiator in the triangle which requires far less traditional playmaking tbh. I did think Pipp was a better shooter initially but Lebron has passed him there as well the past two seasons.

[AchillesHeel]

I think Lebron as a defender is a bit overrated especially if comparing to Pippen, Rodman, Cooper and Bowen. He is a better defender than most players in the GOAT conversation Magic, Bird Kareem ... but Prippen was imho a better defender.
But Pipp NEVER had to carry a team and a coach (pipp had PJ) to a Finals like Lebron did ... And Im pretty sure Pippen wasn't as amazing on defense (IIRC) during the one year he carried the bulls during MJ's retirement.

he averaged 2.9 steals per game(tied career high), lowest DRTG in his career(97), 6.0 DWS and career high PER, 54,4%TS, 49% from the field. He had a fantastic season all-around.

[Killakobe81]

he averaged 2.9 steals per game(tied career high), lowest DRTG in his career(97), 6.0 DWS and career high PER, 54,4%TS, 49% from the field. He had a fantastic season all-around.

not a big believer in DRating but I admit I did not watch a lot of the Bulls that year except playoffs and marquee games. But either way I said I strongly believed he is a superior defender to Bron, I think James is overrated on that end tbh ... much like MJ he chooses his spots on defense. Pippen focused on defense

[Killakobe81]

Also lol at steals/per game as a valuable defensive metric ...

Montae ellis was great at steals ... heck Magic once led the league in it as well (IIRC).

[mudyez]

If I'd build a team "the book of basketball" style (picking players from a time machine to face some alien team that wants to end mankind) the starting5 would look like this:

Olajuwon ('93)
Duncan ('03)
James ('13)
Pippen ('95)
Jordan ('92) (the wings may handle PG duties)

(you can argue about the years)

...but Bron could end up beeing the second banana, while Scottie always will be the 5th!

[Leetonidas]

Kobe vs. Pippen is a much better debate but tbh 6>5

[Phillip]

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason ing Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.



Just look at these ty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the ing ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's ing pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

The only one here who continues comparing Lebron to MJ is you, which makes it even more obvious that you are more focused on ting on Lebron in any way possible, as opposed to the debate at hand.

You still seem to refuse to acknowledge any of Pippen's shortcomings, and ONLY are pointing out Lebron's. And you continue to ignore a number of other facts about Pippen and his responsibilities to try to back up your claims.

Yes, its probably best to no longer debate this with you, considering your highly narrow-minded approach to this.

[Phillip]

And btw, as much as I admire Lebron and his game. He has choked at times. He still has a ugly post game. he is a slave to stats. But despite those flaws he still is one of the best passers in the game. An athletic freak with a high level of skill. Unstoppable in the open court. A much improved jump shooter and a high level if a bit overrated defender. HE still has outside shot at GOAT potential and is still in or near his prime.

It just annoys me when people act like criticizing a part of his game is blasphemy. I criticized a jumper he took in the playoffs last year and Lebron nut riders attacked me and brought up Kobe ...and that had nothing to do with my point. Just because Lebron is the best he cant be touched? In my book even Mj had flaws. Kobe has plenty and Magic was was not flawless either. when you are talking about GOATS especially when comparing you HAVE to mention their warts too.

But back to the topic. Lebron has eclipsed Pippen in every way except as a defender. Lebron to me is an even better passer tbh ...Pippen probably a better dribbler/facilitator. The way I see it Lebron has some Bird/Magic vision. Pippen was great initiator of offense but I never saw THAT. Plus he was the initiator in the triangle which requires far less traditional playmaking tbh. I did think Pipp was a better shooter initially but Lebron has passed him there as well the past two seasons.

Well put, every player has flaws. Unfortunately, some people only want to look at the flaws of one particular player that they don't personally like, and act as if other players had none (in particular, MJ is always viewed as flawless in peoples eyes, which is a load of crap)

[AchillesHeel]

The only one here who continues comparing Lebron to MJ is you, which makes it even more obvious that you are more focused on ting on Lebron in any way possible, as opposed to the debate at hand.

You still seem to refuse to acknowledge any of Pippen's shortcomings, and ONLY are pointing out Lebron's. And you continue to ignore a number of other facts about Pippen and his responsibilities to try to back up your claims.

Yes, its probably best to no longer debate this with you, considering your highly narrow-minded approach to this.

What are Pippen's supposed failures? I have pointed out Lebron's and you've done to counter. Of course you're done, as you have nothing important to say. You were the one to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals chokejob to "the Jordan rules", not me.

Pippen is 6 out of 6 in the finals, he averaged 21 8 and 7 in the Finals for the first three-peat and led a team to a 55 win record despite having a bunch of scrubs on the roster after MJ took time off. Pippen could impact a team in a big way even when his scoring was off and his shot wasn't falling, he was a big part of the 72-10 Bulls, the most dominant regular season team ever, he was the perfect team player, who focused on the defensive end, he locked down Magic,Isiah and Drexler in the playoffs.

See, I state clear facts that you can check up online or on Youtube with your OWN eyes, you can't deny what's there, all I see is you making up bs about Lebron being a better rebounder and a defender than prime Pippen, when numbers suggest otherwise.

So yeah, for the 100th time, Lebron is the better player(how's that hating?) due to his playmaking and scoring ability.

Here, read my initial post again. Your dumb ass wanted to argue with this point, and your dumb ass called me a hater when you had nothing else to say

Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a ing beast, people who watched him know that.

Lebron's greatest talent is his scoring and passing ability, it's funny how a Mavfan is so insecure about someone calling Pippen a better defender than Lebron, it's laughable.

[Clipper Nation]

What are Pippen's supposed failures?

The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

[AchillesHeel]

The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

Doesn't even stack up with the likes of Kirby and Lebronze.

[Brazil]

Lebron could still be the GOAT at the end of his career and already a top 15 probably... Pippen is a top 30 -40 I guess. He is the best defender of the two, all the rest is pretty much for Lebron

[Phillip]

The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

Not to mention the list of people who had fantastic scoring playoff series against Pippen and the Bulls. Apparently he's too stupid to read though.

[Sean Cagney]

Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a ing beast, people who watched him know that.

^^^^ This.

[Phillip]

Pippen is 6 out of 6 in the finals, he averaged 21 8 and 7 in the Finals for the first three-peat and led a team to a 55 win record despite having a bunch of scrubs on the roster after MJ took time off. Pippen could impact a team in a big way even when his scoring was off and his shot wasn't falling, he was a big part of the 72-10 Bulls, the most dominant regular season team ever, he was the perfect team player, who focused on the defensive end, he locked down Magic,Isiah and Drexler in the playoffs.

locking down Magic

case in point, you pick and choose ridiculous examples that don't tell the whole story. Like I stated before, many of your examples would be as stupid as if I were to say Timmy sucks at defense because he gets lit up by Dirk and the Spurs do everything they can to not allow him to guard Dirk. There are other sides to it. But you apparently don't want to look at the whole scope. Either that, or are simply too stupid to do so.

See, I state clear facts that you can check up online or on Youtube with your OWN eyes, you can't deny what's there, all I see is you making up bs about Lebron being a better rebounder and a defender than prime Pippen, when numbers suggest otherwise.

When did I ever say Lebron was a better defender than Pippen? I simply said that I believe that he can play as good or better defense than Pippen if he wasn't the #1 option on his team. If he spent his whole career being a #2 like Pippen was, I don't see any reason NOT to believe he would have been able to accomplish what Pippen did, but better.

But I never once said anything about Lebron being a better all time defender or anything like that.

As for your rebounding claims, you obviously were incorrect, and nearly every stat proves it, not to mention the size, vertical leap, and strength advantages Lebron has over Pippen. I'd take Lebron all day as a pure rebounder over Scottie.

Lebron's greatest talent is his scoring and passing ability, it's funny how a Mavfan is so insecure about someone calling Pippen a better defender than Lebron, it's laughable.

Not once have I disagreed about Lebron's greatest talents. And again, I never had a problem with saying Pippen is a greater defender than Lebron, although it's somewhat misleading due to various cir stances I've pointed out. Yet, you continue to ignore the stats, facts, and situations that have been presented not just by myself, and others, to justify your narrowminded approach.

And I wasn't the one who started making Lebron comparisons to MJ, nor did I ever dismiss any of Pippen's accomplishments, unlike you who never held back comparisons between Lebron and MJ, and dismissing Lebron's accomplishments in manners that had absolutely nothing to do with the initial discussion at hand.

[Phillip]

Doesn't even stack up with the likes of Kirby and Lebronze.

and you try to basically claim that you are not being biased? Then you throw out stuff like this?

[Indazone]

lol this is actually a serious poll? Dumbass Pippen came to Houston in 99. He stunk.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

lol this is actually a serious poll? Dumbass Pippen came to Houston in 99. He stunk.

This can't be a serious post...

Pippen was SIX years out of his prime when he went to Houston. Do you think LeBron will post stats like he does when he's 36-37?

I have no problem with people voting LeBron.. he's the favorite in this poll... but dumbass comments like these... it's like "let me vote for LeBron even though I've never actually seen Pippen play irl"

and btw, idiotzone, he averaged 15, 6, and 6 in Houston.

[HarlemHeat37]

Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..Dominos is by far the 2nd best player in the league, there's no shame in allowing him to score, tbh..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NBA fans constantly ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Lebron >>> Pippen
Kobe >>> Pippen

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NNA fans ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Tbh, all I hear is you gargling on his .

Pippen averaged better stats than LeBron rebounding and assist-wise for the majority of his career. He also stopped Magic, Drexler and Richmond throughout is career.

Pippen is not overrated, and if anything is underrated.

He was a HUGE part of the six les, and MJ wouldn't have won six, maybe not any without him.