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Darwin himself would have had a stroke if he read that crap.
He was a very careful man and pointed out the weaknesses of his own ideas.
I really don't expect empathy of any sort to come from some people on this board. I still try to empathize with the mentally handicapped (I still like Boutons) even though they might not be thought of as efficient human capital.
Still an underutilized source of human capital are women imo.
As for Nazis, I have seen the pictures from the death camps, the real stuff from my wife's grandad. My wife has those pictures from many many camps and the associated notes. It was part of GP job to keep track for the US. Curiously, the Germans the allies ran into after overrunning the country, uhh, none of them were Nazis. The Nazis just disappeared as well...
Ole grandad knew the Nazis would try to lie about it despite their rigorous detailed notes on the camps.
The Rise And Fall of the 3rd Reich is an incredible book. Although it has been claimed by some that Shirer embellished a bit because of his distaste for the Nazis even though he was directly in the middle of the mess.
Last edited by pgardn; 11-13-2013 at 11:24 AM.
Darwin himself would have had a stroke if he read that crap.
He was a very careful man and pointed out the weaknesses of his own ideas.
Eyup. I think, though, he would be pleased about how much he got right, and how much we have improved our understanding of biology since then. He didn't even know about DNA, so I'm sure the old guy would find that fascinating.
As a preliminary matter, it's very easy to talk about empathy and morals when other people shoulder a disproportionate amount of the (financial) burden caused by said empathy and morals. And the fact that you haven't answered the question of how much more you should be paying doesn't bode well.
This country eats it's youth. Young successful people shoulder a disproportionate amount of the tax burden. They don't take nearly as much as they pour into society. Yet when they balk, they're labeled Nazis. That is precisely why conservatives blame people like you as having an en lement mentality -- you think you're en led to others money even though you did jack to earn it.
If you were such an erudite philosopher of German, you'd have some familiarity with why equivocating a critique of your morals with evil is a symptom of a deeper cultural/social disease. But before I get to that point, where'd I say I hate the poor? I don't believe that I should shoulder the financial burden for their poor life choices, but I don't hate them. I want to be left alone -- they can and out as many broods as they want, just leave me out of it. It's not my responsibility.
As for dehumanization, I think the compulsion to accept others charity is far more dehumanizing than anything I've said.
But let's talk about your morals. You claim to base them on reason and empathy - what of people who follow a different logic or feel a different empathy? Are they wrong? What of people who have no empathy at all? And I'm still at a loss why your morals should carry over to the state and be enforced through governmental programs. Ironically enough, the third reich is a pretty good example of when the state carries out a moral agenda. For all your railing against fascism, I find it really ironic that you think the state should compel individuals to hand over their property to foster the greater good. I'd take a good long look in the mirror before you through out the word nazi anymore
Let them eat cake
This really is my fault. I had forgotten why I disliked you so much.
I feel exactly zero compunction to explain things to you. You are intelligent enough to rationalize anything I might try to explain and let your own confirmation bias filter out what you need to understand to be able to get what I am saying.
Ironically, you have essentially called economics as "useless" in your daily life, yet it is the conceptual framework that describes how you interact with others materially. The ebb and flow of goods and services is something you don't opt out of. Everything is interrelated, and you don't, or won't understand that.
"successful young people" take far more from society than they realize, and benefit far more from our system than they know. That is something of a red herring, because I generally am talking about the hyperwealthy that scott refers to, the .4%, the kind of wealth that you will never, ever (ok, 99.6% probability) have.
Evidently, if you're a middle class taxpayer who gives one dollar of every four earned, you're a selfish bas , according to RG. Or, maybe you're a Nazi?
But, then again, some of us think it's far worse to create a vicious cycle of poverty and govt. dependence.
Robert Ley--“Wir oder die Juden...,” Die Hoheitsträger 3 (May 1939)We know that the Jew will lose, that he and his devilish, life-denying and destructive doctrines will be destroyed (vernichtet)
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ley3.htm
the poverty levels of public assistance don't create poverty. iow, St Ronnie's HUGE LIE as President inviting everybody to criminalize the poor, Welfare Queens in Cadillacs and "young (black) bucks", totally distorts the poverty picture and causes for the VAST majority on public assistance, 60% of whom are white. And many of them are WORKING poor, working a jobs for wages while taxpayers top up their wages to poverty level rather than their employers.
Last edited by boutons_deux; 11-13-2013 at 01:16 PM.
Quote Originally Posted by vy65
Self-sustaining cycles and venn diagrams do not dispute the simple fact that if you are smart and work hard, you will succeed in this country. If you are not smart or lazy or both, you will not. I don't see a problem with this simple maxim. Do you?
Wouldn't you protect your wealth if you were rich?
Quote Originally Posted by vy65
Who is the collective we? Do we hold a plebiscite? Or is it our elected officials? More to the point, how is that decision made, i.e., what are the mechanics of it?
1) Not everyone is smart. Smart is not a precondition for basic humanity. Lots of the poor you on work very hard. I fully believe in rewarding merit and hard work.
I would not really care too much about protecting my wealth. When I die all that will be meaningless to me. My concerns are far broader than shallow wealth ac ulation.
The collective we is.. everybody. It is important to be fair and minimize harm.
Sorry, another strawman.
Go away little mind.
The “Decent” JewHowever, outside of a tiny group of intellectual know-it-alls, no reasonable person in Germany would want to say “decent” and “Jew” in the same breath.
A Letter to an Englishman, 1937
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/g...rlindober1.htm
There are no "decent poor"
Tax rate on X = 25%
Tax rate on Y = 15%
Which is penalized?
the VRWC/1% has rigged govt policy for 35 years to prefer, prioritize capital over labor.
one could look at them as fellow citizens and human beings, if there is any inherent consideration or dignity due there. rationalism isn't everything. ;-)You can either be an evil who wants to see these children starve to death, or you can realize that they are simply undeveloped capital.
"sacrificed their lives for the common good"
socialism! communism!
the ongoing demonization of the poor as filthy, lazy and vicious -- is guilty of its own accusations. the open cruelty and sadism of political discourse continues to impress.
That is really my primary viewpoint, and the one that makes my own mind up far more than any economic argument. Such arguments though, tend to fall on the deaf ears of self-styled self-righteous free-market champions for whom "data" is the plural of "anecdote".
When you have so filled your mind with hate, arguments that depend on empathy and love for ones fellow human may as well be farts in the wind.
That is why I reserve the skewer of solidly grounded economic arguments for such people. It pierces to the core of their own self-image as champions of some imagined and ill-understood "free-market". The people who talk about individualism the most tend to understand the economic arguments the least, i.e. Wild Cobra et al. This is, for me, delicious irony.
Further, I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that vy knows jack about welfare programs in the US. At the beginning of the internet when Clinton was getting ready to sign the overhauls of these programs I spent quite a bit of time arguing over it, and reading studies. It may be interesting to see what has happened in the last decade or so and revisit the peer-reviewed literature.
Welfare programs are far from the free ride that many on the right seem to think they are.
Nice try, but still a strawman.
Getting close though, and I hate to break it to you, but the "middle class" pay far less than 25% of their incomes in federal income tax.
"Welfare programs are far from the free ride"
that's one of the MANY LIES the Repugs/Fox/1%/deficit-hawks (cut Medicare, refuse Medicaid expansion, cut or privatize SS) spew non-stop, and they have convinced many ignorant suckers in this forum.
so very passive aggressive ... you should post more irrelevant nazi quotes about the jews
And if you're talking about me (I don't know if you are), I don't think I ever said anything about the free market.
Speaking of strawmen, I'm sure being on the government dole is quite onerous and hard on all those welfare recipients.
This is point is, like much posted in this thread, irrelevant.
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