NBA: Pippen or LeBron?

[LkrFan]

Leadership? I never saw Pippen lead a team to a championship. Sure he had a major role in championships, but he NEVER was the indisputed leader, and there was never a single Finals series where Pippen seemed to remotely have a chance at winning FMVP over MJ. Yeah, I don't see how you justify that.

rule changes. People still handcheck, just not in blatantly obvious manners. But pretty much every play has some sort of handchecking going on.

You can't blame Pip for failing to rang with Pete Myers as his SG. Getting to the ECF was a huge feat considering the supposed massive void MJ left. If you think Pip's leadership shouldn't be credited for that, we'll agree to disagree.

And if that's your take, then Bron should be docked some points here. Yes, he rang twice, but... Battier saved his ass in '12, and Ray Allen did the same last year. Come to think about it, Bron mostly choked when they needed him in the clutch. Sure he was their best player (can't say that about Pip in either of his championship teams for obvious reasons), but if not for role players like Battier and Allen, he's an 0-timer. Sad because he was on a stacked team with 3 players that were top 10 at their position and great, savvy role players. They shouldn't have even been challenged - let along losing to your Mavs - and they definitely should have lost to the Spurs last year.

For the record: Bron would have played 2nd fiddle to MJ - just like Pip did. And for s and giggles, he would have played 2nd fiddle to a 24-year old, 315lb Shaq too.

[thunderup]

It was a response to this:



Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael

mikealstott.gif

[Phillip]

It was a response to this:



Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

By 80's and MJs standards? Yes that was inefficient. Defense was generally nonexistent until the 90s. League average over the last 10 years has been around 44-45% In the 80s' league average was around 48% MJ was generally shooting over 53%. So by his standards, it was not particularly efficient at all, and a noticable drop in efficiency.

The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

Jordan had a noticeable drop in efficiency, froze his teammates out, and lost. Obviously the point went over your head, since you think I'm trying to compare Lebron's greatness to MJs, or comparing the Jordan Rules to Carlisles defensive strategy on Lebron, when my point was that a well prepared defensive strategy can cause problems that lead to a losing style of play for an opposing superstar scorer. The Pistons and Mavs had different approaches, but they both succeeded in their respective approaches, and caused the opposing superstar to look less than stellar, and play a style that led to their teams losing.

That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael

As I just stated, obviously you misunderstood my posts. Not a shocker, considering your clearly narrow-minded intellect. Not once was I trying to say Lebron =/> MJ.

[Phillip]

You can't blame Pip for failing to rang with Pete Myers as his SG. Getting to the ECF was a huge feat considering the supposed massive void MJ left. If you think Pip's leadership shouldn't be credited for that, we'll agree to disagree.

I never said Pippen shouldn't get credit for leadership. Just that there is no reason to believe he truly is a superior leader to LeBron, considering he never came close to the accomplishments that Lebron has.

And if that's your take, then Bron should be docked some points here. Yes, he rang twice, but... Battier saved his ass in '12, and Ray Allen did the same last year. Come to think about it, Bron mostly choked when they needed him in the clutch. Sure he was their best player (can't say that about Pip in either of his championship teams for obvious reasons), but if not for role players like Battier and Allen, he's an 0-timer. Sad because he was on a stacked team with 3 players that were top 10 at their position and great, savvy role players. They shouldn't have even been challenged - let along losing to your Mavs - and they definitely should have lost to the Spurs last year.

This is clearly a biased load of crap. Is Miami talented? Sure. Balanced? Not at all. Bosh and Wade may be good talents, but they don't compliment LeBron's skillsets particularly well. Not in the way that Pippen was able to compliment MJ, or that Kobe was able to compliment Shaq. In 2011, it was clearly evident that a well built team is better than an unbalanced but talented team. 2011 Mavs were about as balanced of a team that you will see. They were solid in basically every aspect of the game, while Miami had numerous glaring weaknesses that they were able to cover up with their talent, until they faced a more well built team in the Mavs.

I don't see why LeBron deserves blame for the fact that they are weak on the interior with no legit post threats both offensively and defensively. The fact that they still won back to back with such a massive weakness is amazing. There may not be another le team with as big of an interior weakness as Miami has had these past 2 years. If you want to dock Lebron points in one area, then he certainly deserves points in this area, for basically accomplishing something no one else has done before, in winning multiple championships without a quality post player. Even during MJ's runs, he had Cartwright and Longley, both of whom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel Anthony and Birdman.

You are what you are. Lebron won 2 championships, and made a LOT of clutch plays in his playoff career as well as during those le runs. He has been clutch in the playoffs far more often than not through his career.

For the record: Bron would have played 2nd fiddle to MJ - just like Pip did. And for s and giggles, he would have played 2nd fiddle to a 24-year old, 315lb Shaq too.

Both are very possible scenarios.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Philip, watch the original video I posted. That's all I ask from you.

[AchillesHeel]

I never said Pippen shouldn't get credit for leadership. Just that there is no reason to believe he truly is a superior leader to LeBron, considering he never came close to the accomplishments that Lebron has.



This is clearly a biased load of crap. Is Miami talented? Sure. Balanced? Not at all. Bosh and Wade may be good talents, but they don't compliment LeBron's skillsets particularly well. Not in the way that Pippen was able to compliment MJ, or that Kobe was able to compliment Shaq. In 2011, it was clearly evident that a well built team is better than an unbalanced but talented team. 2011 Mavs were about as balanced of a team that you will see. They were solid in basically every aspect of the game, while Miami had numerous glaring weaknesses that they were able to cover up with their talent, until they faced a more well built team in the Mavs.

I don't see why LeBron deserves blame for the fact that they are weak on the interior with no legit post threats both offensively and defensively. The fact that they still won back to back with such a massive weakness is amazing. There may not be another le team with as big of an interior weakness as Miami has had these past 2 years. If you want to dock Lebron points in one area, then he certainly deserves points in this area, for basically accomplishing something no one else has done before, in winning multiple championships without a quality post player. Even during MJ's runs, he had Cartwright and Longley, both of whom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel Anthony and Birdman.

You are what you are. Lebron won 2 championships, and made a LOT of clutch plays in his playoff career as well as during those le runs. He has been clutch in the playoffs far more often than not through his career.



Both are very possible scenarios.

The 2011 Finals weren't really about balance, they were about Lebron playing like while the rest of the team played fairly well. Lebron did recover in 2012 and he's earned his stripes as the best player in the game, so I agree with that. But you seem to disregard the numbers and the possessions Lebron was given. He wasn't triple teamed like Michael, more often than none Lebron was either in isolation against an old Shawn Marion or Jason Kidd, or he was getting wide open 3s from the top of the key while Wade was double teamed.



look at that horrible sequence though, Kidd and Chandler double team Bron, Bosh is wide open and he passes to Haslem which leads to a TO

But seriously the Mavs defense dared Lebron to shoot for the whole series, and his J was nowhere to be found.

Lebron's bread and butter is the drive and kick, Mavs took that away from him in the Finals and dared him to score from the perimeter, and he stunk it up, which ended in a Finals loss. Bosh also averaged more points in that series.

2011 Finals will forever be the stain on Lebron's career, whenever his legacy will be discussed, if he wins more rings, he can up his stock, but he's not in that Duncan/Shaq/Bird/Magic tier, he got to the Hakeem tier with his 2 rings.

[HarlemHeat37]

Not sure why Lebron's 2011 choke is being cited in a thread against Scottie Pippen, a career sidekick with limited offensive responsibilities throughout his career, tbh..

As I've said many times, Lebron's 2011 will always hurt him from a career rankings standpoint, he certainly choked(albeit he was fatigued from carrying Miami's ty cast all year) but ranking career accomplishments is played out, anyways..peak rankings are more relevant, and Lebron's 2012 and 2013 seasons are as good or better than any player in the history of the league..only Hakeem and Duncan have led a team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and either Steals/Blocks for an entire playoffs in a le run IIRC..amazing, tbh..

[hater]

although Lebron still has lots to prove. (he choked in 2013 too, except he was bailed out by Ginobili)

let's face it. Pippen = class A++ player. Lebron = among conversation of best 10 players ever.

[Hoops Czar]

although Lebron still has lots to prove. (he choked in 2013 too, except he was bailed out by Ginobili)

let's face it. Pippen = class A++ player. Lebron = among conversation of best 10 players ever.

Yeah, among the conversation, tbh.

[Clipper Nation]

changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron he beat my spurs " thread

Let's be real, it was always an "i hate lebron he beat my spurs" thread.... Just consider who the OP is - the same got who tried to claim that LeBron's the new T-Mac because he doesn't chuck the least efficient shot in basketball

[Hoops Czar]

Let's be real, it was always an "i hate lebron he beat my spurs" thread.... Just consider who the OP is - the same got who tried to claim that LeBron's the new T-Mac because he doesn't chuck the least efficient shot in basketball

Change your diapers CN. Nobody has to be worthwhile prognosticator to know the Clippers aren't winning an NBA championship anytime soon.

[Clipper Nation]

Btw, the 2011 argument is played out.... EVERYONE has playoff failures on their resumes, whether it's Jordan getting outscored by Craig Hodges and being used as a "decoy" against the Pistons, Kirby chucking his team out of the Finals in '04, Duncan missing that layup, etc.... haters still cling to 2011 because they don't want to face the reality of 2012 and 2013

[hater]

Btw, the 2011 argument is played out.... EVERYONE has playoff failures on their resumes, whether it's Jordan getting outscored by Craig Hodges and being used as a "decoy" against the Pistons, Kirby chucking his team out of the Finals in '04, Duncan missing that layup, etc.... haters still cling to 2011 because they don't want to face the reality of 2012 and 2013

how soon people forget. Lebron CHOKED in 2013. He was just bailed out by Ray Allen and Manu (and the rest of the Spurs) for that matter.

let's not forget Lebron was playing ty and BTW he had 6 turnovers in that game 6. The ball bounces a different way and the media would be crucifying Lebron for being a career choker. Still like I said, he's top 10 in history.

[Phillip]

Not sure why Lebron's 2011 choke is being cited in a thread against Scottie Pippen, a career sidekick with limited offensive responsibilities throughout his career, tbh..

yet these re s swear up and down they are sticking to the topic at hand and have no bias whatsoever in their arguments

[Phillip]

how soon people forget. Lebron CHOKED in 2013. He was just bailed out by Ray Allen and Manu (and the rest of the Spurs) for that matter.

lol bringing up a bad sequence right after Lebron singlehandedly got his team back into the game

lol forgetting game 7

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

lol bringing up a bad sequence right after Lebron singlehandedly got his team back into the game

lol forgetting game 7

HE DIDN'T FINISH.

HE. TURNED. IT. OVER. TWICE. IN. 50. SECONDS. AND. AIRBALLED. A. THREE. AND. MISSED. TWO. OTHER. THREES. HE. ALSO. HAD. PARKER. SPLASH. A STEPBACK THREE. IN. HIS. FACE.

Twist that.

[Phillip]

HE DIDN'T FINISH.

HE. TURNED. IT. OVER. TWICE. IN. 50. SECONDS. AND. AIRBALLED. A. THREE. AND. MISSED. TWO. OTHER. THREES. HE. ALSO. HAD. PARKER. SPLASH. A STEPBACK THREE. IN. HIS. FACE.

Twist that.

tbh looks like he finished when it mattered the absolute most imo

[RsxPiimp]

Lebron is better and this coming from his biggest hater. No comparison. Pippen is definitely a better defender throughout his career considering that was his assignment but to be fair, Lebron IMO is much more capable of guarding players if he wants to lock down considering his athleticism, size and speed but he's a bit overrated in that part though just like most swing men who does the scoring for their team.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

tbh looks like he finished when it mattered the absolute most imo

Would that have existed if Ray missed that three, tbh?

[Phillip]

Would that have existed if Ray missed that three, tbh?

Would Ray's 3 have existed if Lebron hadn't scored 16 points in the 4th quarter, to lead a massive comeback, along with a 3pt shot to cut the lead to 2 with under 30 seconds to go?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Would Ray's 3 have existed if Lebron hadn't scored 16 points in the 4th quarter, to lead a massive comeback, along with a 3pt shot to cut the lead to 2 with under 30 seconds to go?

Would that 3 have existed is he didn't miss that shot horribly and for Bosh to get the rebound? Or would he had to do that if he held on to the ball or played D on an injured Parker?

[Phillip]

Would that 3 have existed is he didn't miss that shot horribly and for Bosh to get the rebound? Or would he had to do that if he held on to the ball or played D on an injured Parker?

grasping at straws

my spurs lost

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

grasping at straws

my spurs lost

Lol you are delusional.

Get back to slurpin on LeBron's .

You're like a dumpster for James. Kinda sad considering Dirk HATES the Heat loyal fan tho

[Clipper Nation]

Kinda sad considering Dirk HATES the Heat loyal fan tho

By that logic, you should like LeBron, because Pop compliments him all the time and Duncan told him it was "his league now" after ringing in '07