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should i post half of a random box score and challenge to see if you can tell me which came it was? plus my guess was the finals game
You're no longer qualified to discuss this. You don't even know what game this was. You obviously didn't see it so you don't have any idea what was happening and you assume that Russell wasn't getting any help. Anyone who saw it knows it was the biggest " my team" chucking display in the history of the Finals, even AI couldn't pull that one off.
You also don't know that the term "team" means 5 individuals on the floor at the same time. It's not the best idea to go solo on the offensive end. You have a team around you for a reason. They have to play on the defensive end, do you think they will keep defending and never touch the ball on offense? How did that work with Shaq in 2004? Exactly. A PG has to involve his team on offense. That's their jobs.
should i post half of a random box score and challenge to see if you can tell me which came it was? plus my guess was the finals game
Then you still said he didn't have any help. Did you or did you not watch that game?
that game was lost by westbrook, but for committing an intentional foul when it wasn't even warranted
lol
So him playing hero ball had nothing to do with it with his mom in the audience? Are you for real?
i said that at first glance at the box score. near the end of my post, i asked what game it was and guessed finals.
if having his mom in the audience is your form of evidence that he was trying to go hero, then lol right back at you
NBA Playoffs 2011: Research Confirms Russell Westbrook Shoots Too Much
To reach the NBA Finals, Russell Westbrook of the Oklahoma City Thunder needs to pass more, especially to his teammate Kevin Durant. That would be the message that two researchers would send to Thunder coach, Scott Brooks, if given the chance. Matt Goldman, a graduate student at the University of California, San Diego, and Justin Rao, a research scientist at Yahoo! Labs recently named Westbrook as the biggest “chucker” in the NBA because of statistics showing that he shoots much more often than he should, while Durant is classified as an under-shooter, whose team would benefit from him taking more chances.
While their statistical theory builds a case for how to achieve optimal efficiency on the court, they don’t explain why elite players make the in-game decisions that they do. For that matter, what about the high school ball player or the weekend warrior at the gym; how do they make the decision to pass or shoot? For that, Markus Raab and Joseph Johnson, both sport scientists, have some insights from their research.
First, let’s do the numbers. Goldman and Rao dug into the NBA stats archive to analyze over 400,000 team possessions over the last four seasons, 2006-2010, across the entire league. In a paper and presentation at the recent MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, they presented a model that compares the difficulty of a shot taken in relation to the time remaining on the 24-second shot clock. Then they compare this with a concept called “allocative efficiency,” or the benefit of equally distributing the ball to any of the five players on the court and also “dynamic efficiency,” or deciding whether to “use” the possession by taking a shot or “continuing” the possession by making a pass. As the shot clock winds down, the marginal difficulty of a shot considered will need to rise or they risk getting no shot off before the 24 seconds expire, wasting the possession.
They found that most NBA players are very efficient in their shot selection. Surprisingly, several elite players are actually not shooting enough, according to their model. Here is the list of all NBA players analyzed and their score, where a negative number (at the top of the list) represents over-shooters. Joining Westbrook at the top of the list were well-known names like Lamar Odom and Tracy McGrady. Even bigger names like LeBron James, Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Paul and Joe Johnson actually show up at the bottom of the list and may hurt their teams with their unselfishness.
So, what goes on in these very well-paid athletic brains? Are the trigger-happy players selfish, over-confident and in need of attention? Markus Raab, professor at the German Sport University, Cologne, and Joseph Johnson, professor at Miami University of Ohio, have spent the last 10 years studying the decision-making processes of athletes in several different sports, but especially fast-paced games where quick decisions are critical.
Let’s imagine the Thunder point guard, Westbrook, bringing the ball up the floor. He crosses the half-court line and his decision-making process kicks in. The Raab/Johnson process first recognizes that perception of the situation is required before the player can generate all of the different options in his brain.
Just like a quarterback examining and identifying the defensive alignment as he breaks the huddle, the point guard in basketball has to visually process the scene in front of him. From there, his brain, based on his vast memory of similar basketball experiences, begins to make a list of options. These can be spatial options, like move the ball left, ahead or right, or functional options like pass or shoot.
Through research with basketball and team handball players, the researchers found that the most effective strategy is to “take the first” option that the player conceives as that is most often the “correct” choice when analyzed later by experts. Much like going with your first answer on a test, the more that you deliberate over other choices, the greater the chances that you’ll pick the wrong one.
However, each player will have their own library of choices stored in their memory and this magical sorting of best options can be influenced by several unique variables.
One of these predetermined factors is a personality preference known as action vs. state orientation. According to Raab, “An action orientation is attributed to players if they concentrate on a specific goal and take risks, whereas a state orientation is attributed to players if they have non-task-relevant cognitions and reduce risk-taking behavior by considering more situative considerations and future behavioral consequences.” In other words, someone who has an action mentality is more likely to shoot first and ask questions later, while a state-oriented player is going to consider more options with more long-term outlook.
For this and similar experiments, Raab and Johnson showed first-person videos of many different basketball in-game scenarios to players of different skill levels and personality types, then froze the scene and asked them to make a quick decision of what to do next with the ball. They recorded the decision and the time it took to make the decision. They found that those players who have more of an action orientation, according to a personality test given prior to the drill, were more likely to shoot first and more quickly. Clearly, Russell Westbrook must fall in this category.
Raab followed up this study with a similar one that measured the difference between intuition-based decisions and more cognitive, deliberate decisions. A player who “goes with his gut” was shown to make faster and more successful choices than one that over-analyzes. This may help explain the list of elite players who tend to pass more than shoot. They have more experience and patience to rely on their intuitive feel for the game. While Goldman and Rao may ask them to be more action oriented, these players have learned that they are often just one more pass away from a much higher-percentage shot.
Certainly, this is the tip of the iceberg regarding the psyche of a player at any level. There are many more variables, some fact-based (e.g., I’ve missed my last five shots, so I’m going to pass) while some are more emotional, (e.g., I don’t want my teammate to get all the glory.) For now, Thunder fans can only hope that their point guard learns to share.
first off, don't move the goalpoasts from Curry to Westbrook. westbrook is a chucker. why? he takes more shots per game than kevin durant does. that sells me enough. durant is the best scorer in the league. Curry is the best scorer on his team. but on topic...
OKC shot 20/50 from the field outside of Westbrook. they wouldn't have even been in the game if he didn't score as much as he did.
can i ask you who are the top 5 point guards in the nba right now?
and can you tell me if Michael Jordan was a chucker?
You're not much on abstract thinking I see. Don't you think the PG controls the flow of the offense, and when he's bringing the ball up the court and his first thought is always to shoot the ball, leaving 4 other players standing around knowing they'll likely never see the ball, disrupts that flow? Ever heard of "rhythm"? It's what teams get into when they are moving the ball and taking shots in stride. The sudden "hey I just got the ball with 4 seconds left because Russell dribbled the clock out" heave doesn't cons ute a good offensive flow.
This isn't rocket science. Are you really this naive about basketball that you look at a game like that and conclude Westbrook was the only one playing offense?
MJ wasn't a PG. The ball was passed to him almost always which means some ball movement. He took a lot of shots, but he also moved the ball well.
Are you comparing Curry to Jordan?
question a) who are the current 5 best point guards in the NBA?
question b) was michael jordan a chucker?
I'm not here to follow your bread crumb trail. This has nothing to do with whether or not Curry is a chucker.
Curry is not one of the 5 best PGs in the NBA right now. FYI. The only reason RW is mentioned is because he's hijacked the team from Durant.
I also find it amusing (like watching a re finger paint) that you use the double standard of RW being a chucker because of Durant, but allowing Curry a pass by saying he's the best scorer on the team. Don't you suppose him not passing the ball enough makes him a higher scorer? If he was that great of a scorer, wouldn't they win more games? MJ did. RW does.
So then
1. You agree that RW is a chucker because he shoots too often (even though you struggled to admit it until I left you with no alternative).
2. You want to use a double standard that allows Curry to shoot too much and not be a chucker because Klay doesn't shoot as well as Durant (truth is that he's shooting a higher percentage from 3, he just doesn't get 15FTA a game because he doesn't drive the paint much).
Your argument is that if MJ took a lot of shots (22FGA over his career and 1.7 from 3), and he was the GOAT, Curry cannot be a chucker since he's doing what MJ did.
That's a argument.
The top 5 PGs in the league question is a fat red herring. You figure that one out.
i'm just gna keep going with this
Ok Dale, knock yourself out. I'm not here to convince a re that on his finger is a bad idea.
a) who would be your top 5 current point guards?
b) did you consider michael jordan a chucker?
some very simple answers would get me to stop, unlike cully
Curry can't finish at the rim against any team that plays any d. He's too short and not athletic enough
Friendly fire ... LOL
DMC, A player that takes volume shots is always a chucker?
Even if he has a clear advantage?
If curry sucks on defense he shouldnt try and do what he does best?
What if his team (let's focus only on Curry, here because at times Kobe has been asked to shoot less, cant say I have heard that from Steph's team-mates) is imploring to shoot especially if they are losing and he is hot, isnt it his RESPONSIBILTY to shoot?
Are you saying a Spur fan that appreciates team ball can't enjoy the beauty of Curry getting on a hot shooting streak?
Because I value Kobe's individual skill that makes me less of a fan of team ball even though I grew up on Magic and Showtime?
I don't care if you talk and I dont care if you reign fire and brimstone but that is some of the dumbest I have read on here ...
is michael jordan a chucker?
who are the top 5 point guards in the nba today?
if i can get answers to these questions from DMC, we can move along in the conversation
OK I see later on that DMC agrees a player that is scoring should shoot if it is a good quality shot. And tbh, I have no issue with Kobe being called a chucker shot selection (and white women) are his kryptonite ...
I just think every playerwho volume shoots is labeled on here as a chucker no matter the situation. Ellis for example is showing with the right coach, system and quality team-mates he can be more efficient.
Kobe was the opposite he had to be more efficient because Shaq and Phil was on his a$$ but after they left he shot with impunity ....
The bulls need rose to score same with Steph and Gstate and Russ and OKC. Just because Klay and Durant are great scorers doesnt mean that those PG's should not shoot.
I get the need for team ball. I have coached. But I always preached taking advantage of matchups.And in youth ball the best players are usually PGs. And if you have the best chance to score even as a PG it's your RESPONSIBILITY to score and then attract defensive attention ...then when the defense adjust you feed your team-mates. I think the problem is sometimes those guys when they get hot do develop tunnel vision. Kobe is probably the biggest culprit but Parker, Russ, rose etc are all guilty of taking it too far.
I just think yall throw around the term too liberally. Are stars like Lebron, Cp3, tim and PG preferable to have for team harmony? Absolutely. But if a team is built around a chucker Like the 2000 sixers for example, AI was right to "chuck". and he rode his squad to a finals that way. Is it ideal? No. but it was effective because that was his role on the team. Problem occurs when someone who should NOT be taking shots takes them or there is a power struggle over shots (Shaqobe)
Last edited by Killakobe81; 12-10-2013 at 05:43 PM.
we saw what okc looked like without westbrook, and dmc claimed they'd look better once he got hurt. westbrook has a lot of flaws, and often times takes terrible shots (that ridiculous pull-up shot when they're in TRANSITION and have no chance for a rebound), but he's overall a net positive. thats not to say he doesn't hurt them at times or can become a better decision maker. spurfan ridiculous westbrook all the time, and deservedly so. i don't think curry is generally in that same echelon, though he shot like 5/16 three pointers last game. ugliness
I'll add my two cents. Mj WAS A chucker but he was just better at it than everyone I have ever seen. if you actually watch old MJ games or watched him objectively without a pair of "J's" on with a a Come fly with me video in your VCR, he took I would say at least anywhere from 2-3 bad shots a game AT LEAST. Is he a chucker compared to Kobe, Melo or AI? no. But imho, a chucker is a player that is willing to take a bad shot of his over a better shot of a far inferior team-mate. all 3 guys fit this criteria. Mj was just a better player than any of them, Kobe is probably closest but his shot selection is worse. And as good as an athlete as Kobe was in his prime, MJ was better and he was so far ahead of his time.
SO Mj is a chucker but when you are THAT much better than everyone else ... why should he not be? He won. He made so many easy shots a few (often times more) "chucks" per game were allowable and NO ONE except Horace Grant said squat. When l horace Grant did and they shipped his ass out ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 12-10-2013 at 05:57 PM.
thats fine. i wonder if DMC is willing to add Michael Jordan to the chucker category popularized by kobe, iverson, westbrook, and his boy steph curry
A PG always has a chance to score. He's bringing the ball up the floor 99% of the time. There's a difference between "opportunity to shoot" and "open look". Steph takes the opportunity to shoot, doesn't wait for an open look. He heaves up contested 28' shots before a single pass is made. Dude took 16 threes last night. MJ averaged less than 2 a game.
So the team is built around a chucker. That says Curry is a chucker. What's your problem then?
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