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So basically a team that can get elite QB play from a QB who's not getting paid elite money has a huge advantage.
Who'da thunk it!
Eli used to be pretty close
So basically a team that can get elite QB play from a QB who's not getting paid elite money has a huge advantage.
Who'da thunk it!
or elite qb's are getting paid too much
Obviously. But it's not just that they have an advantage. It's that the QBs have oretty much been shut out after they got their money. So if you're a team trying to win a ring, why pay so much money to retain a guy when keeping him hurts the team so much? Why not just invest in developing a backup? If $20 Million QBs can't win, why ever pay one that much?
Of the 8 teams left in the playoffs, 3 teams have elite QBs getting elite money (Peyton @ 17.5M, Brady @ $13.8M, Brees @ 17.4M), 1 team has a good QB getting overpaid (Rivers @ $13M), and 4 teams have QBs still on their rookie deals (Wilson, Luck, Kaep, ).
I'm not sure why people think the fact QBs still on their rookie deals don't compromise cap space means elite QBs are getting paid too much. The 8 teams remaining tell me that unless you've got a bargain at QB still playing out his rookie deal, you better have an elite QB.
it could also mean the perceived market value for these elite qb's is higher than their actual value
Eli Manning's 2011 cap value was $14.1M, 2007 was $10M
Drew Brees' 2009 cap value was $10.7M
Peyton's 2006 cap value was $10.6M
Plenty of QBs have won a superbowl after "getting their money". The fact you keep using this arbitrary $20M number when that's the cap figure you see in the tiest years of the QB's contract doesn't change that.
Good job not addressing the fact that the only teams in the playoffs not paying their QB elite money are teams with a QB on his rookie deal.
im not trying to understate the importance of qb's, but the salaries of recent winners tells me the market value of FA qb's is inflated. those teams with rookie contract QB's have stacked rosters, like Seattle and SF, while teams like GB, NE, and even Denver have glaring holes that their great qb's can sometimes mask. the great qb's should obviously get paid, but perhaps the contracts should be dialed down
nowadays a 10 million dollar contract for a qb isn't exactly "getting their money"
No one is arguing against $14 Million. If Flacco had gotten $84M/6 we'd probably all think he was paid well. So throw Brady and Rivers out. That's two of eight making elite money by today's standards. Manning had a bye, and if he loses this weekend, he'll be no one to brag about. So we only have the Saints as evidence. We already know they sucked without Payton. So I think it's debatable that Brees is the main reason why they're still in it.
We can aslo talk about all quarterbacks sitting at home who average what Brees and Manning are.making this year. So it's not like that money always gets used well. At best, it seems like the only QBs who should get more than $14 Million are the Big Four.
It's not like I'm calling the QBs one-year wonders. A bunch of second-contract quarterbacks win it all. There's a huge difference between $13 Million and $20 Million. Thats the number that most starters are hitting nowadays. So it's not like I plucked that from the heavens.
Eli Manning was a recent winner at $14.1M, and you just said he's not even elite.
But yes, I'm sure Tom Brady making elite QB money is why Wes Welker dropped a game winning SB catch or why they've had key injuries every year, or why Belichick has blown countless recent 2nd round picks on total duds. I'm also sure Rogers' contract is why his defense has had key injuries every year. On the flip side, I'm sure Kaepernick's contract has directly led to the near-perfect health the 49ers had last year, and Joe Flacco's small contract was why Baltimore got healthy at the right time last year.
Neither San Fran or Seattle have won anything either, so I'm not sure what they're supposed to prove
There's 1 QB in the NFL with a cap figure at or over $20M this year, and only 3 more with a cap figure over $15M, so yeah, I'd say you did pluck that from the heavens
he isn't. he has had 2 great playoff runs though.
smaller cap numbers lead to more depth, which could explain why injuries are more debilitating to teams with players with very high cap numbers (typically qb's). what was brady's cap number in 2011 tho?But yes, I'm sure Tom Brady making elite QB money is why Wes Welker dropped a game winning SB catch or why they've had key injuries every year, or why Belichick has blown countless recent 2nd round picks on total duds. I'm also sure Rogers' contract is why his defense has had key injuries every year. On the flip side, I'm sure Kaepernick's contract has directly led to the near-perfect health the 49ers had last year, and Joe Flacco's small contract was why Baltimore got healthy at the right time last year.
you brought them up as 2 of the remaining teams (along with carolina). they are 2 teams without elite QB play who are doing fine, because they are spending that money typically reserved for qb's on other positions, which puts them in a competing position. unless you think kaep is playing at a high level or somethin like that.Neither San Fran or Seattle have won anything either, so I'm not sure what they're supposed to prove
Oh look another argument not supported by any specific examples, just general statements. The 49ers had horrible depth last year, their starters just didn't get injured in spite of a high snap count. Please point out specific evidence where more depth prevented injuries or how a lack of depth caused injuries. I'm anxious to hear how a lack of depth is why Gronk's knee collided with another player's helmet and he tore his ACL.
Brady's total cap figure for 2011 was $13.2M so he was counting against the cap less than Eli. Were you hoping the number I gave would help your argument?
Which they won't be able to do once their QBs get new deals. What are you saying, teams with elite QBs should let them leave and try to find a bargain QB in the draft?
No... I'm speaking as a fan of team who just gave its QB a $20.1 APY because that's supposedly the going rate for franchise QBs. Later in the off-season two more signed for even higher averages. Afterwards, three more signed for near that average. Now are their cap numbers that high this year? Nope. That rarely happens. But the numbers will catch up. Flacco, Ryan and Romo aren't sitting at home due to their cap numbers. But those numbers could keep them at home in future post-seasons.There's 1 QB in the NFL with a cap figure at or over $20M this year, and only 3 more with a cap figure over $15M, so yeah, I'd say you did pluck that from the heavens
Oh ok so you're talking about hypotheticals that haven't happened yet, not the current day NFL. Got it.
Make sure you save all of your posts in case this argument happens again in 3 years.
Nope, making two arguments that are getting concatenated. The first is that having the absolute top QBs doesnt seem to really get rings. Instead, teams that can put their cheap QBs in positions to succeed keep getting all the glory.
The second is that today there is a prevailing mentality that QBs are so important that even average ones are worth more than elite players at other positions. So that's leading to mediocre QBs like Flacco and Stafford gettting elite money. That leads to actually elite players demanding even more. The market is not out of control because Brees and Rogers are getting $20 Million. It's out of control because Stafford and Cutler get $18M+ and no one bats an eye.
this wasn't the argument at all, but OK. I have no idea when Stafford and Cutler became a part of this discussion.
I don't think Flacco is anywhere near elite and I've always thought he was a little overrated, but he DID have an elite stretch of football when it mattered most last year, tbh..
I don't believe you need an elite QB to win a le, but I do think you need a QB that can play at an elite level for a few weeks of the playoffs, tbh..it's difficult to win with a Trent Dilfer, like you could in the past..
I still value defense over anything, and that seems to be overlooked by today's fans and media, tbh..
1- Defense
2- QB play
3- Coaching
IMO, that should be the priority for winning, and it seems obvious..I can't remember a team that won with only 1 of the 3, which worries me as a Broncos fan(although you could argue Manning negates Fox's staff as the offensive game planner)..
We were arguing about the innate value of starting quarterbacks upthread. That's when I jumped in and talked about that second part. The first part is just repeating my stance on elite QBs. The elite label doesn't have any predictive power. New QBs keeo winning while the elite keep getting knocked out.
About Rogers, I don't see him winning once his extension kicks in in earnest. He needs too much to win. The only way got get that much help and fit in under the cap is to consistently draft amd develop well. But even Flacco showed he can win a ring with the right players around him, so what makes Rogers essential? Maybe the Pack would have even had a good record had they developed a backup instead of signing them off the street.
i never said a lack of depth causes injuries. i said a lack of depth makes injuries more detrimental. maybe i should just post the word "strawman" over and over again and post pictures of reading comprehension textbooks
It's not that I want him to make Flacco money, I think way too many of these QBs are getting overpaid. It's the nature of the market, way too much demand and not enough supply of elite QBs. I'm just saying that if Kaep helped us to win a ring, I'd be okay biting the bullet and living with him making Flacco money, because I think Kaep could turn out to be special. But ideally I'd like for him to help us win and not get overpaid.
Personally, if no elite or franchise QB was available, and there aren't many tbh, then I'd just load up on O-Line and D-Line.
I agree I think Manning was the one of the few worth it, since he raised the entire level of that franchise and city, but he could've improved his chances by taking less. It would've been interesting to see what he could've done if signed with the newer rookie contracts. Be interesting to see how Colts fare once Luck gets the big bucks.
Saints offense was better last season than this season. Brees played with the worst defense in NFL history. The defense this season is the biggest reason for the Saints success. They've outplayed the offense all season.
Also Brees had success under Marty ball.
You can continue with your ty takes.
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