Where does the Admiral place in the all-time rankings?

[baseline bum]

Pippen and Wade above The Admiral?

Wade deserves it for that ridiculous run he went on in 06, especially the series he had versus a 64-win Pistons team.

[apalisoc_9]

Kobe Bryant never was the best player in the league in a single season so him being at 9 is Stupid.

[TheGoldStandard]

DRob was truly a great especially having only played 13 seasons and 9 of those as the alpha dog.

[Kidd K]

You said yourself: "KG was never really known as a league-dominant player"...this is the main part I disagreed with. He won an MVP and was clearly the best player in the league in 2004. So I really don't get that comment.

And it's funny you bring up "arguing something that wasn't said". I never said KG's ring meant as much as Hakeem's or Dirk's. In fact, I specifically brought up how it WASN'T as meaningful as another ring (Duncan's in '03). But we're comparing KG to D-Rob, not Hakeem or Dirk. Robinson never won a ring as a 1st option either. He took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets. I don't understand why you're acting like David Robinson was the biggest part of the Spurs winning in '99. Duncan was clearly the most important player on that team, both in the regular season and the playoffs. You think Robinson's ring means as much as Hakeem's rings or Dirk's?

As for fleeing the team...really? He dealt with Minnesota's horrible front office for what, 11 or 12 years before finally leaving? He wasted his entire prime playing for an organization that was never able to build a championship team around him. Something that would've happened to Robinson, too, had he not gotten injured and the Spurs lucked out by landing a once-in-a-lifetime player like Duncan to play alongside him.

I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a le. It wasn't until after they exited their primes that they had enough surrounding talent to win a le. Only difference is Robinson got injured and his team drafted Duncan, while Garnett eventually said it and left for a better team.

Basically: I'm perfectly fine with the Robinson > KG argument. In fact, I agree with it. I just don't think the gap between them is as great as you make it out to be. You're really underrating KG.

Yeah, how many times did he get to the Finals again before Boston? 0? How about just out of the first round? Once? Yeah. . .

Fleeing the team: Same deal with LeBron except he was worse than LeBron. He goes to Miami to join with all stars artificially. The ring isn't seen as being as valuble as a guy who stuck it out with a team, built up normally, then won. That's why Jordan's 6 are seen as so impressive. He never fled to another team, he stuck it out and built up, toiling through the bad seasons before he started winning. The ring KG got doesn't mean as much as guys who stuck it out like DRob did, like Dirk did. I see no reason to continue arguing this since it's kinda obvious.

took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets

And Hakeem's Rockets won the le that year. The year Hakeem had one of the most legendary post season runs of ALL TIME, and they won the le the next year too. The Lakers didn't win the le in '04, lost in '03, and were done in '05. Meanwhile Shaq was already fading in '04. Kobe was great, but KG doesn't guard Kobe.

I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a le.

Yes, and yet, Robinson was more successful than KG even prior to Duncan being drafted. Won more games, was getting further in the playoffs, was putting up better numbers, was touted as the bigger talent, etc. See my point?

I ain't selling KG short. He's good. He just isn't what DRob was. DRob was essentially the "LeBron" of his era. The huge dude with the illogical athleticism for his size who put up gargantuan numbers. Just so happens his career was cut a bit short due to having to serve in the Navy and later the back injury which slowed him down a lot. KG was always a really good player, but never an "omg check this guy out" kinda guy like DRob was.

[DMC]

Top three. Top ten. Respectively.

No and no

[DMC]

Don't forget two gold medals and a FIBA championship, as I recall. That's still worth something. And he has tons of accolades. Also 71 points in a game is pretty incredible. (Going off memory here so if I am wrong, well, it is not by much.)

The Dream Team gold medals are cereal box toys tbh. The ones they win these days are more difficult to attain.

[DMC]

When it's all said and done with everyone on Simmons' list, then it will make sense. You cannot accurately rank active players against retired ones because their body of work is not complete. Tim will be ranked higher when he retires. Even though he lost in the Finals, getting there elevated his legacy even more.

[DeadlyDynasty]

As an all-time player he ranks one or two spots behind Pau Gasol

[polandprzem]

When it's all said and done with everyone on Simmons' list, then it will make sense. You cannot accurately rank active players against retired ones because their body of work is not complete. Tim will be ranked higher when he retires. Even though he lost in the Finals, getting there elevated his legacy even more.

Why can't you rank an active players? It makes sense.

Like you would say that floyd mayweather is unranked on the alltime list - Just

[EVAY]

People always tend to forget David carried a team of scrubs for most of his career and still had a wining team. Give him a Manu and parker then he would probably been just as successful as Timmy.

I think this is absolutely the case. People forget that prior to Holt's ownership, the Spurs never had the payroll that would substantiate a world-class roster like we have today. Robinson was aware of that as well, and at his retirement ceremony referred to Holt having taken the team "to a higher level" talent wise than they had ever been before.

A less positive fact regarding Robinson is that he totally dominated the Spurs' team salaries, even demanding 11+M per year as his last contract, after he was seriously hampered by back and foot problems. With the likes of McCombs, etc. as owners, there was never enough money to attract much talent around him.

[Skull-1]

Wade deserves it for that ridiculous run he went on in 06, especially the series he had versus a 64-win Pistons team.

Dave would sh-t all over Wade. The guy was a freak of nature. A man that big who could move like he did. His defense was stifling, too, which people forget. The Spurs are the Spurs because of Robinson. He set the tone for a dynasty that has been awesome for two decades.

[Skull-1]

No and no

He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

[EVAY]

I don't think that Kevin Garnett is in the same league as Robinson in his prime. The only way they are similar, imo, is that they each sucked up all the money from the team's salaries in small market, leaving them to be surrounded by lesser talent that meant they really had trouble going all the way in the playoffs (Until Duncan got here for Robinson, obviously - but remember he was on a rookie contract at the time).

[Killakobe81]

Well, he's the only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and Most Valuable Player award during his career. He is also the only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season. He has two NBA championships, two Olympic gold medals, and was named to numerous All-NBA teams, All-Defensive teams, and All-Star teams. He has one of the few quadruple doubles in NBA history, and scored 71 points in a game. He stacks up very well against the other star centers he played against throughout his career in terms of points, rebounds, blocks, and games won. He has 519 win shares in his career and only 11 loss shares. That is incredible.

Unfortunately, the simple-minded and ignorant among us view his career solely based on the 1995 playoffs against the Rockets. While David was outplayed by Hakeem during that series, he still played well. He faced a lot more double teams due to the Spurs not having as strong a supporting cast. And despite that, I still maintain that the Spurs would have won the series if Dennis Rodman had not been such a distraction. Nonetheless, Houston was certainly a more talented team. The Spurs had a lineup of Robinson, Rodman, Elliott, Del Negro, and Johnson, while Houston had Olajuwon, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, etc. Just an incredible amount of talent, which even a great series by David would probably not have been enough to overcome.

As for the argument that he never led the Spurs to a championship, I disagree. The 1999 championship team was decidedly David's. Sure, Duncan played well and led the team in scoring, but David had some huge performances during that playoff run. His defense was incredible, he scored the ball reliably, and his leadership (along with Mario Elie) was so key. We would not have won that le without him.

Stepping back and looking at his career as a whole, including his stats, wins, awards, and performance against his contemporaries, I put him as the fifth best center ever behind Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq among centers, and just ahead of Hakeem and Moses Malone. I think he is in the top 20-25 overall.

I agree with a lot of this. I just find it hard to place him over Hakeem who beat him when both were in their primes. I especially agree that because TIm was so special in 1999 many on here overlook how much David contributed to that team even though he was clearly no longer in his prime. Without David doing his best work to limit Shaq and the other top bigs that year (IIRC) maybe the spurs dont ring. I posted downstairs if you watch any of the Dream Team footage from 1992 I dont think anyone outside of MJ (INCLUDING Scottie Pippen who was great all around athlete) stood out more than DR. that was a team with a plethora of HOF'ers
And David if you watch him glide from end to end block shots and finish strong was amazing. If you think about it despite lacking the handles and vision of Lebron it's actually David who reminds me most from a physical standpoint and impact on defense to James and not Karl Malone or Magic. David though not as dominant as Shaq was a true professional who took pride in his shape and physique. I just wish he had a bit more fire to him. Duncan though quiet flashes a fire that I rarely saw from David. And I think he gets judged a bit harsher because those with THOSe types of gifts great things are expected. Fair or not David could not win without tim yet tim has proven he could win without David. And that is why Tim is considered the greater player.

I rank David just below Hakeem and I'll be honest Moses vs. David is a tough call. I prefer David's all-around game but Moses had some of that "bully" to him that I think if David had there would be no question who is the greatest center. From a Natural talent perspective Only David and Shaq imho had the ability to be greater than Kareem. the fact that neither got close ... is and indictment on Shaq's lack of focus and I dont think David had that "beast" in him. It's not a knock. I just don't think David ever cared for individual goals. I doubt he ever had any design to be the GOAT center. The fact he did not fight his Navy commitment shows that he valued a lot of things greater than his career. Duncan as humble as he is cares about that stuff part of why he loves being a PF ...

Great player. All time best athletes I have ever seen in the NBA: MJ, Lebron, Nique, David, Scottie ...
Overall as a player I would say top 20 but I don't count guys I never saw play ...

[Killakobe81]

LOL at he overrating of Shaq and Pau by spur fans some of Im sure Kobe has something to do with that.
Simmons list is pretty good. I would flip flop Duncan and Kobe but I do agree that it is close. And have said that repeatedly.
To say that it is not close is crazy no matter which side of the debate you are on. Kobe is not miles better than tim as Kool would say but No way Duncan is way better than Kobe either.
Shaq because he is funny and was so dominant inside many on here ignore the number of time he has been swept. and the fact that considering his size and the way he dominated in the Finals that he should of been a better rebounder and shot blocker. Great player definitely a top 5 all-time center and above David but so overrated on spurstalk and LG.

And yes I get Kobe is overrated plenty of places too ...

[txstr1986]

To win a scoring le with very average footwork and a lack of go-to move was........wait for it......wait for it.....admirable.

I feel that this line isn't getting the credit it deserves.

[Phenomanul]

Too bad whottt isn't around anymore to educate the Spurs' fan base on all things D-Rob related (a fan base whose newer adherents continually undermine just how dominant a basketball player Robinson really was on his freakish athleticism alone – despite not having Duncanesque talent or footwork).

I remember him dissecting that infamous '95 series that is largely used to scorn Robinson's legacy. I found an excerpt from one of his posts that I archived... [for those who can stomach his overly long paragraphs] here’s a summary:

1). None of the Spurs' role players showed up consistently in that series. In fact, Dennis Rodman, Robinson’s notorious front court mate, went completely crazy [moreso than usual] in the middle of the series. If he had simply imploded and quit on his team, it may have been surmountable. But no, he went bat- crazy and sabotaged the Spurs’ chances for winning the series all-together by being largely responsible for putting them in an 0-2 hole to start the series, AT HOME, no less!! The majority of those that use this series as an argument to knock Robinson’s legacy NEVER mention this fact. Apparently, no one outside of San Antonio even remembers this subterfuge – as if Rodman’s 0 for 5 from downtown in Games 1 and 2 wasn’t sufficient a clue. Upon closer inspection [I’ve watched that series more than I care to admit] Rodman’s sabotage is more cunning. Nonchalantly closing out on three point shooters [which, when motivated, Rodman was one of the best – as was the case against the Lakers’ bombers the series before], doubling the wrong man, fouling at a higher clip than usual, ‘inadvertently’ setting picks against his OWN players, etc… When San Antonio media questioned his antics after Game 1, he cunningly pointed to his free-throw shooting as a counter-argument to the suggestion that he “was playing for the other guys”. In other words, Rodman only cared about his rebounds [as usual, for personal reasons only – not because he cared about winning the actual games], and pretended to care by ensuring his free-throws were ‘well taken’. That is some downright Machiavellian scheming right there – and most would probably never believe that Rodman was capable of such maneuvering. But I saw it, Rudy T. saw it, Bob Hill failed to react to the obvious, and the Rockets took advantage – all at David Robinson’s expense. Lo and behold, ESPN neglected the story.

2). Robinson was constantly double-teamed by Horry and Olajuwon, or by Olajuwon and Charles Jones (whose sole purpose in that series was to hack away at Robinson – in just 88 minutes played over 6 games, Jones averaged a whopping 7.7 fouls per 36 min (for a total of 19 fouls)!!, 84% of which were committed against Robinson]. The Spurs couldn't counter because it left one of Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler or Mario Elie WIDE OPEN for threes. Game 1, Game 3 and the clincher in Game 6 were decided by critically clutch shots made by these bombers. Most people solely credit Olajuwon for the series victory, due to his other-worldly stats, but utterly fail to mention that 3 games were decided by his shooters!

a). For the series, the Rockets were 44 of 127 from downtown (for a respectable, but not great, 34.6%). Breaking it down further however, they were 13/29 in the 4th quarters (44.8%), and 9/17 in the "clutch" (52.9%) [5 minutes or less in a close game]. For being considered a “weak” team, that type of support will get it done every time. All the Greats have had the benefit of clutch shooting from their respective supporting casts on their way to rings. Robinson’s supporting casts NEVER gave him that sort of help. Olajowon’s did. It’s as simple as that.

b). The Spurs, by contrast were 23 of 72 from downtown for the series (31.9%). 8/27 in 4th quarters (29.6%), and 4/13 in the the "clutch" (30.8%). In other words, the opposite trend.

c). Last year, Amar'e scorched a Duncan-led Spurs team to the tune of 37 ppg (vs. Hakeem's 35.3 ppg in that ill-fated '95 series) [normalized, the difference is more prominent; Amar'e scored 0.89 points per minute vs. Hakeem's 0.81 points per minute]. The Spurs prevailed, largely in part to the Spurs' balanced attack (Spurs' "Big Three" of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili all averaged above 20 ppg for the series) and this squad could actually contribute from beyond 3-point territory (44/107 for 41.1%). Contrary to popular belief, not all of Amar'e's scoring came off of Nash's pick'n'roll sets. He excelled in the open court on transition baskets, 23% of his scoring came by way of the charity stripe, and another 18% of his baskets came off of isolation plays against Duncan or Nazr Mohammed. In other words, he was a prolific, all-around, scoring machine (by Spurs' defensive design, of course). That said, no one in their mind would claim that Amar'e is a better player than Duncan, but had the Suns won the series those stats could certainly be touted against Duncan to make the case. The point being, that CONTEXT is everything. And unfortunately for Robinson, the media and the casual fan have taken a lackadaisical approach by using the ‘95 series, and specifically ONE particular play that is played ad nauseam as the de facto series’ abridged summary [credit to Olajuwon] to tarnish Robinson’s place among the best. It certainly didn’t help that Robinson’s well-deserved MVP award was used as the ‘driver’ to hype up the drama between the two all-star centers, to help build up TV ratings for a series that largely failed to captivate the casual fan once the Spurs ousted the Lakers in the Conference Semifinals. Olajuwon further emphasized said ‘motivation’ only after his ticket to the Finals was secured, an expressed sentiment that unfortunately threw more dirt Robinson’s way. Olajuwon then made sure that the collective memory of that series would degrade Robinson's legacy forever and embellished the series outcome after the summer of 1996, when Robinson outplayed both him and Shaq for the starting gig on the Atlanta 1996 Dream Team II squad. In other words, Olajuwon is a -bag as a compe or. Never once did Robinson speak negatively about his contemporaries (Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc...), never once did he fabricate personal vendettas to hype up their head-to-head match ups [which Robinson holds over every one of those centers]. It's the 'good guy' persona that the media just absolutely hates. The media clamors for upstanding athletes, and role models but only because they make excellent news after they fall from grace or screw-up. David never did, so the only way they can knock him is by undermining his legacy.

[baseline bum]

I don't think that Kevin Garnett is in the same league as Robinson in his prime. The only way they are similar, imo, is that they each sucked up all the money from the team's salaries in small market, leaving them to be surrounded by lesser talent that meant they really had trouble going all the way in the playoffs (Until Duncan got here for Robinson, obviously - but remember he was on a rookie contract at the time).

That's a pretty unfair characterization of Robinson since he tore up that rookie contract and signed for a lot less about 4-5 years into the league. Red McCombs' cheap ass gets the blame for Robinson having supporting casts.

[Skull-1]

Too bad whottt isn't around anymore to educate the Spurs' fan base on all things D-Rob related (a fan base whose newer adherents continually undermine just how dominant a basketball player Robinson really was on his freakish athleticism alone – despite not having Duncanesque talent or footwork).

I remember him dissecting that infamous '95 series that is largely used to scorn Robinson's legacy. I found an excerpt from one of his posts that I archived... [for those who can stomach his overly long paragraphs] here’s a summary:

Right the bleep on! Robinson continues to be severely underrated. I will never forget that missed dunk attempt in his last game. My goodness. He was flying. And that was the "old" Dave with a bad back. In his prime there was nothing like him.

[Killakobe81]

Right the bleep on! Robinson continues to be severely underrated. I will never forget that missed dunk attempt in his last game. My goodness. He was flying. And that was the "old" Dave with a bad back. In his prime there was nothing like him.

I agree ...Lebron is closest but he is only 6 foot 8 ...
Obviously Lebron is a greater player but watching a graceful athlete Lebron and David are two of the best.
Neither have great post footwork but two of the best at going "end to end" ...

[Skull-1]

I agree ...Lebron is closest but he in only 6 foot 8 ...
Obviously Lebron is a greater player but watching a graceful athlete Lebron and David are too of the best.
Neither have great post footwork but two of the best at going "end to end" ...

Dave was also a defensive monster.

[EVAY]

That's a pretty unfair characterization of Robinson since he tore up that rookie contract and signed for a lot less about 4-5 years into the league. Red McCombs' cheap ass gets the blame for Robinson having supporting casts.

If you look back to response #60 on this same thread you will notice that I already agreed that McCombs' cheapness was a continual thorn in Robinson's side and kept him (Robinson) surrounded by lesser talent all through his career. And I already mentioned that Robinson was so incensed by it that he brought it up in his retirement ceremony that Holt was responsible for taking the team to a higher level than it had ever been.

Having said all of that, San Antonio was/is a small market team and Robinson took one of the largest contracts in the league (not undeservedly but he did take them) and there was no way that sized salary, a Red McCombs owned team was going to be able to afford any other talent. Robinson made it publicly clear before the completion of his last contract talks that he would absolutely bolt San Antonio if they didn't give him the money he wanted. I think he eventually signed that time for 11M, which at that time was a pot load of money for an injured and aging star.

I think Robinson was terrific, please don't get me wrong on that. I think he was light years better than Kevin Garnett, and that was the subject I was addressing in my comments. Garnett's contract size was the biggest of its time up to that point, IIRC, and there was no way Minnesota could bring anyone else into that team and pay them what they could get anywhere else. And Robinson's contract, whether or not McCombs SHOULD have spent more money on the surrounding cast, was always the reason given for WHY they couldn't put any better players surrounding him.

I know that you remember, BB, that those were the days when one big name player per team was considered the norm, and that person was expected to 'carry' the team. I was always convinced that if Robinson had a little more help, he would have gotten to the finals before Tim arrived. But he never had a good enough supporting cast to help him until Tim got here on a rookie contract.

Red McCombs did very little for the city of San Antonio in the way he ran the Spurs...but let's face it, he only owned them so he could convince the city powers to build him the Alamodome so he could try to attract a pro football team, which is about all he ever cared about. That Alamodome was a mess for basketball players, but then it wasn't built for them...it was built for a team that never came...so Red went a bought another football team in another city.

[baseline bum]

If you look back to response #60 on this same thread you will notice that I already agreed that McCombs' cheapness was a continual thorn in Robinson's side and kept him (Robinson) surrounded by lesser talent all through his career. And I already mentioned that Robinson was so incensed by it that he brought it up in his retirement ceremony that Holt was responsible for taking the team to a higher level than it had ever been.

Having said all of that, San Antonio was/is a small market team and Robinson took one of the largest contracts in the league (not undeservedly but he did take them) and there was no way that sized salary, a Red McCombs owned team was going to be able to afford any other talent. Robinson made it publicly clear before the completion of his last contract talks that he would absolutely bolt San Antonio if they didn't give him the money he wanted. I think he eventually signed that time for 11M, which at that time was a pot load of money for an injured and aging star.

I think Robinson was terrific, please don't get me wrong on that. I think he was light years better than Kevin Garnett, and that was the subject I was addressing in my comments. Garnett's contract size was the biggest of its time up to that point, IIRC, and there was no way Minnesota could bring anyone else into that team and pay them what they could get anywhere else. And Robinson's contract, whether or not McCombs SHOULD have spent more money on the surrounding cast, was always the reason given for WHY they couldn't put any better players surrounding him.

I know that you remember, BB, that those were the days when one big name player per team was considered the norm, and that person was expected to 'carry' the team. I was always convinced that if Robinson had a little more help, he would have gotten to the finals before Tim arrived. But he never had a good enough supporting cast to help him until Tim got here on a rookie contract.

Red McCombs did very little for the city of San Antonio in the way he ran the Spurs...but let's face it, he only owned them so he could convince the city powers to build him the Alamodome so he could try to attract a pro football team, which is about all he ever cared about. That Alamodome was a mess for basketball players, but then it wasn't built for them...it was built for a team that never came...so Red went a bought another football team in another city.

I don't think $11 million was that out of line for 2001 contracts. That was the biggest free-spending era in league history, and he was worth more than guys like Brian Grant and Eddie Jones who were pulling similar starting salaries but on 7 year contracts. I didn't see your previous post about McCombs; my bad. The Alamodome sucked so badly for basketball. I remember the first time I watched a game at Staples and all I could think was how its so cool to watch a game at a real NBA basketball arena.

[DMC]

Why can't you rank an active players? It makes sense.

Like you would say that floyd mayweather is unranked on the alltime list - Just

You cannot rank them because their body of work isn't complete. You can suggest that, if they retired right now, they would be ranked however, but their entire career needs to be considered. Do you think a player can lose spots in the ranking if their career suddenly takes a turn for the worse? What if Tim Duncan decided to keep playing and really stunk it up out there, costing his team games? Do you average that in with his prime years or do you just ignore it and focus on his prime? If it's his prime, I have no problem counting active players.

There's active ranking and all time ranking. I don't agree with putting active players on all time lists. I think there's time after they retire for that, when their entire body of work can be examined. That's because otherwise their rankings change on a year to year basis, or day to day, or even play to play. That's pointless.

[DMC]

He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

Right about the time Tim was on the same team with Michael, Barkley, Larry, Pippen, Malone and Stockton.