Ken Berger of CBS is reporting Spurs aggressively looking to make trade

[DPG21920]

Not fair about MEM IMO. There use of stats got them further than they every have gone in franchise history (WCF). They got unlucky this year with the Marc Gasol injury which makes it difficult to see how good they could be. Their coach was terrible IMO so that isn't a big deal, but they do have some holes. But let's see how things play out over the years with MEM.

[ElNono]

I would disagree on that. I think they were a flawed team (especially their outside shooting, something that advanced stats glaringly showed for them, and they tried to correct with Mike Miller this season). They were just as fortunate as the Spurs as far as Westbrook's injury. I think they had an excellent coach that got the most out of that group. I do agree that the Gasol's injury obviously hurt them this season and so it's difficult to measure how good/bad they could've been (this season).

[HarlemHeat37]

There are so many advanced stats now, you can easily and accurately gauge a player's value and impact, tbh..

Advanced stats IMO are not basic and flawed formulas like PER, Win Shares, any of Dean Oliver's horrible , etc..the best formulaic stat is RAPM(so far), but it has it's share of flaws, as well..the best advanced stats are all the tools that provide you with descriptive videos and possession-by-possession analysis that isn't limited to raw box score numbers, tbh..

Hollinger being an advanced stats guy doesn't really represent anything IMO..he's still working for a franchise that is limited by location/money in most instances..every team except for the Lakers is now emphasizing advanced metrics IIRC..

[Sean Cagney]

The problem isn't the stats. It's the fact that most people don't understand the math behind each stat, and so they can't put them in context. It's like looking at PPG but ignoring FG%.

True.

[Sean Cagney]

There's nothing else to look for other than D ratings. The splitter crowd claims his prowess on defense, obviously they can't see, and the only way to prove is by tossing the stats out for evidence. If I say, Splitter cant defend nearly good enough to justify his contract, then have no basis for this other than my own opinion, there is no way to prove the claim. Similarly, in a refute you can't/shouldn't just type the equivalent of "you're wrong cause I say so." There has to be some evidence, and sometimes stats are a way to justify the concept.

I can agree to from your above post, is that +/- and D ratings are not as good as watching the game. There are so much more that players do on the court that make more of an impact than anything a stat could show. Plays that change momentum are worth more than a three-pointer, and sometimes worth giving up a few points for.

Splitter is a much better man on man defender than Blair is though, thats no question at all. Blair played matador D here pretty much and I saw alot of him, never would confuse that guy for a defender.

Most front offices beg to differ with you. Nearly everyone is going to the new advanced stats. It took about 10 years for it to become ubiquitous in MLB, but I don't imagine that it will take that long in the NBA.

You can't use the eye test. By the eye test, Rudy Gay looks like a great player, but advanced stats expose him as a fraud. Memphis had their best two playoff runs without him, and Toronto has gone on a absolute tear after trading him.

Advanced stats expose both efficiencies and inefficencies on both offense and defense. If you utilize the efficient and discard the inefficient, your team will maximize it's potential. The more you use it, the bigger the overall gap between the efficient and the inefficient becomes.

So advanced STATS would say that Blair is as good as a defender or better than Splitter correct? I usually go by what I see that doesn't show up in a stat sheet. I can agree on points per possession when on the floor and other things as indication. At times an ace defender though won't be glaring on steals or blocks etc., some bum can gamble and average a few steals a game when he is not a good defender but BOWEN who did not always show up on the stat sheet can shut you down without a single steal or block! Points per possession I can see on an individual guy and FG% against etc., but that is hard to really guage at times unless you really study the stats. I see what you are saying but crap like +/- or PER 48 mins I just laugh at in certain arguments.

[DPG21920]

True, there is a difference in what Hollinger has to do (moneyball for a franchise with little market appeal and limited funds) vs what a Lakers would do with advanced stats because of their built in advantages. The fact is, they traded Gay largely because of Hollinger and they got to the WCF.

Hollins was a terrible coach IMO (which is why he is still without a job tbh..).

[HarlemHeat37]

As for Splitter, he's absolutely a great defensive player, tbh..

Among big men, he's #6 in the NBA in FG% allowed at the rim this season, and rim protection isn't even his specialty, tbh..

Last year, he was #9 in the league in post up defense, so this season hasn't been an anomaly..

Splitter's numbers don't suffer without Duncan, for those that will blindly use Tim's presence as their counter-argument..

It's especially impressive considering he's one of the few great post defenders that can also defend the pick&roll at a high level..there are less than 10 players that fit this criteria, tbh..

The Spurs paid him for a reason, and obviously that isn't because of his great offensive game..

[testies]

As for Splitter, he's absolutely a great defensive player, tbh..

Among big men, he's #6 in the NBA in FG% allowed at the rim this season, and rim protection isn't even his specialty, tbh..

Last year, he was #9 in the league in post up defense, so this season hasn't been an anomaly..

Splitter's numbers don't suffer without Duncan, for those that will blindly use Tim's presence as their counter-argument..

It's especially impressive considering he's one of the few great post defenders that can also defend the pick&roll at a high level..there are less than 10 players that fit this criteria, tbh..

The Spurs paid him for a reason, and obviously that isn't because of his great offensive game..

This tholdren guy is really clueless on analyzing the actual game form basketball apart from ~LOL HE JUMP HE REBOUND HE GOOD DEFENZE!!11

He even said BLAIR is better than Splitter on defence.. That should be ban worthy.. the same blair that JVG was ripping on his horrible defence on duncan.. I saw Splitter switch on Curry this season and be successful.. The times in important games in postseasons last year that he switched and forced guards to make difficult shots, when he canceled Randolph or Gasol many times.. ffs.. he was crucial in sweeping Memphis and beating a very, very, extremely tough GS team

I literally never got so mad reading anyone`s comments on the internet as bad as this tholdren one

[Spursfanfromafar]

Hollins was a terrible coach IMO (which is why he is still without a job tbh..).

Nonsense. Hollins was a great coach who coaxed the Grizz to play excellent defense and did a lot of player development as well, grooming Conley and Gasol into very good players. If anything, Hollins was a bit too stubborn in the way he played his team and bringing up talent much more slowly than his FO demanded (Ed Davis etc).

Hollinger & co. made a big mistake removing Hollins and getting a tyro to coach the team. Joerger still seems yet to be bought by his team and that is why the Grizz have suffered such a drop in just one year.

Hollins, btw, was offered a number of assistant coach gigs, but apparently he refused, if I remember reading reports correctly.

[Baam]

As for Splitter, he's absolutely a great defensive player, tbh..

Among big men, he's #6 in the NBA in FG% allowed at the rim this season, and rim protection isn't even his specialty, tbh..

Last year, he was #9 in the league in post up defense, so this season hasn't been an anomaly..

Splitter's numbers don't suffer without Duncan, for those that will blindly use Tim's presence as their counter-argument..

It's especially impressive considering he's one of the few great post defenders that can also defend the pick&roll at a high level..there are less than 10 players that fit this criteria, tbh..

The Spurs paid him for a reason, and obviously that isn't because of his great offensive game..

They paid him to play between Tim and Kawhi and he can't do that anymore.

[ElNono]

Nonsense. Hollins was a great coach who coaxed the Grizz to play excellent defense and did a lot of player development as well, grooming Conley and Gasol into very good players. If anything, Hollins was a bit too stubborn in the way he played his team and bringing up talent much more slowly than his FO demanded (Ed Davis etc).

Hollinger & co. made a big mistake removing Hollins and getting a tyro to coach the team. Joerger still seems yet to be bought by his team and that is why the Grizz have suffered such a drop in just one year.

Hollins, btw, was offered a number of assistant coach gigs, but apparently he refused, if I remember reading reports correctly.

IIRC, the Grizz won their first playoffs series with Hollins at the helm, and also had the franchise's best winning percentage for a season. Both things happened before Hollinger arrival too.

[HarlemHeat37]

They paid him to play between Tim and Kawhi and he can't do that anymore.

I'd like to see him coming off the bench, and while that sucks that you would be paying somebody so much money to come off the bench, I think it would help both units..

[ElNono]

As for Splitter, he's absolutely a great defensive player, tbh..

Among big men, he's #6 in the NBA in FG% allowed at the rim this season, and rim protection isn't even his specialty, tbh..

Last year, he was #9 in the league in post up defense, so this season hasn't been an anomaly..

Splitter's numbers don't suffer without Duncan, for those that will blindly use Tim's presence as their counter-argument..

It's especially impressive considering he's one of the few great post defenders that can also defend the pick&roll at a high level..there are less than 10 players that fit this criteria, tbh..

The Spurs paid him for a reason, and obviously that isn't because of his great offensive game..

Which in turn helps Duncan, since he has to spend less energy banging on the defensive side.

[HarlemHeat37]

Nonsense. Hollins was a great coach who coaxed the Grizz to play excellent defense and did a lot of player development as well, grooming Conley and Gasol into very good players. If anything, Hollins was a bit too stubborn in the way he played his team and bringing up talent much more slowly than his FO demanded (Ed Davis etc).

Hollinger & co. made a big mistake removing Hollins and getting a tyro to coach the team. Joerger still seems yet to be bought by his team and that is why the Grizz have suffered such a drop in just one year.

Hollins, btw, was offered a number of assistant coach gigs, but apparently he refused, if I remember reading reports correctly.

Hollins wanted to keep Rudy Gay, which would have prevented Memphis from making their run, tbh..last year's Grizzlies team was one of the 3 worst WCF teams in my lifetime IMO..

Joerger designed Memphis's defensive system in the past IIRC, so he deserves a lot of credit..

Hollins is an average coach IMO..

[exstatic]

Nonsense. Hollins was a great coach who coaxed the Grizz to play excellent defense and did a lot of player development as well, grooming Conley and Gasol into very good players. If anything, Hollins was a bit too stubborn in the way he played his team and bringing up talent much more slowly than his FO demanded (Ed Davis etc).

Hollinger & co. made a big mistake removing Hollins and getting a tyro to coach the team. Joerger still seems yet to be bought by his team and that is why the Grizz have suffered such a drop in just one year.

Hollins, btw, was offered a number of assistant coach gigs, but apparently he refused, if I remember reading reports correctly.

A front office that makes it's decisions primarily using advanced stats will never peacefully coexist with a coach who scoffs them. Everybody has to pull in the same direction.

[ElNono]

Hollins wanted to keep Rudy Gay, which would have prevented Memphis from making their run, tbh..last year's Grizzlies team was one of the 3 worst WCF teams in my lifetime IMO..

Joerger designed Memphis's defensive system in the past IIRC, so he deserves a lot of credit..

Hollins is an average coach IMO..

I don't think Hollins would work on every team, but I thought he had that group believing and you could argue overachieving... while I thought trading Gay was the correct move, that team needed outside shooting badly and it was never really addressed... Can't pin that on the coach, tbh

[ElNono]

A front office that makes it's decisions primarily using advanced stats will never peacefully coexist with a coach who scoffs them. Everybody has to pull in the same direction.

BTW this is true too...

[HarlemHeat37]

I would have retained Hollins, it's stupid to let go of a coach of a WCFs team that went deeper than they had ever previously reached in franchise history..I'm just saying, I don't think the Grizzlies would have been anything better than a 7th seed with their limited roster, Randolph on the decline and Gasol injured..

[Spursfanfromafar]

Hollins wanted to keep Rudy Gay, which would have prevented Memphis from making their run, tbh..last year's Grizzlies team was one of the 3 worst WCF teams in my lifetime IMO..

Joerger designed Memphis's defensive system in the past IIRC, so he deserves a lot of credit..

Hollins is an average coach IMO..

Lots of contradictions in what you say..

Yes, Hollins wanted to keep Gay, but he did get the post-Gay Grizz to compete and get into the playoffs on a high. They simply didn't do enough against the Spurs because they completely lacked perimeter play (which was precisely what Hollins was emphasising he was talking about Gay's retention).

Hollins' strength as a coach is seen in the way he built the Grizz upto a good, competing squad a la the Thunder (after Carlesimo was chucked).

Trouble with Hollinger & co is that while their advanced stats brigade thinks well and better than the gut feel gang, they just take it a bit too far. Advanced stats folks are useful as an add-on, not as the "thing".

[Spursfanfromafar]

IIRC, the Grizz won their first playoffs series with Hollins at the helm, and also had the franchise's best winning percentage for a season. Both things happened before Hollinger arrival too.

Yes. Precisely.

[Sean Cagney]

Lots of contradictions in what you say..

Yes, Hollins wanted to keep Gay, but he did get the post-Gay Grizz to compete and get into the playoffs on a high. They simply didn't do enough against the Spurs because they completely lacked perimeter play (which was precisely what Hollins was emphasising he was talking about Gay's retention).

Hollins' strength as a coach is seen in the way he built the Grizz upto a good, competing squad a la the Thunder (after Carlesimo was chucked).

Trouble with Hollinger & co is that while their advanced stats brigade thinks well and better than the gut feel gang, they just take it a bit too far. Advanced stats folks are useful as an add-on, not as the "thing".

Agreed, Hollins was a good coach as well don't know how anyone could say he was average or a bad coach. Good post.

[Baam]

Imo they should have retained Hollins OR now they have to go full moneyball and trade Zbo like Hollinger is dying to do...

Doesn't make sense to fire Hollins and still be blocked from going full moneyball by the Zbo thing... Doing one of the two is a lose lose situation... But hey it's not that easy to trade a fan favorite screaming he wants to stay and would feel betrayed otherwise...

[BatManu20]

Bonner for Lebron straight up. Otherwise, this team isn't making any (meaningful) trades. Same story, different year.

[DPG21920]

I can't really believe we are having this discussion tbh..Hollins is a below average coach.

From an anecdotal perspective it's really, really difficult for a coach that has experienced any sort of success to not get a job in the NBA. Wether their success was deserved, any success pretty much grandfathers you into to a head coaching job. Not only did Memphis not want him, plenty of other teams with HC openings did not want him. People asked about him for an assistant coach position only which should tell you something.

Not so anecdotal, his insistance on playing Gay and running offense through him was a big reason the team underwhelmed. Not only was it obvious that Marc/ZBo needed more touched, but the keys needed to be handed to Conley much sooner. It's not hard to field a great defensive team when you have Conley/Tony Allen + a big man anchor of Gasol. But Hollins insistance on playing Gay big minutes and running offense through him held the team back. It was only when management stepped in and forced his hand by moving Gay did the team realize their potential. He simply played the guys that were left and it forced the Conley growth and defensive improvements.

He still complained about the trade even today (just listen to him on Sirius FM NBA Radio). His antiquated mindset, limited play calling ability and failure to adjust during games is what makes him a below average coach IMO. There is a reason he is out of a job.

[cd021]

I'm a big fan of advanced stats, tbh, but you can't forget it's just a tool, no more, no less... it's no end-all, be-all...

For your argument about Gay (which I agree with), I would counter with the Grizzlies team in general, which bet heavily on advanced stats by hiring the poster boy for them, and have made dubious decisions at best (Prince when they needed outside shooting, Mike Miller to try to eventually address that without any semblance of success, letting go the coach that elevated them to the best season in franchise history, etc)...

That was a major bust of a move acquiring him. Shooting 40% and 30% from 3 (which he rarely even shoots anymore) They are paying him $7.7 million next season too. Seems like they are swapping player for player in hopes that the player they acquire will be slightly better and push them closer to being elite.

Also ,adding Lee will cost them more than $11 million over the next couple of seasons. Moving him for Bayless ( who was struggling, granted) who was on the final year of his deal).