NBA: If LeBron doesn't win another championship....

[RsxPiimp]

Bucks and Sixers werent that good, similar to some of the bad teams MJ played.

The Knicks were not a bad team at all. Indiana was solid. And the thing is, Lebron isn't done yet. He has a LOT of basketball left to be played.

Now I don't disagree that the East probably had some tougher compe ion during MJs days, but it's not like he faced any transcendent teams either.

I do agree with what you said earlier though, and it's that, great teams tends to make most teams they face look inferior. And the seeding where a Top team going against the lower seed makes this obvious.


I still think today's league as a whole is better with better talents across the board, does anyone remember the NBA Jam arcade? I laugh at the quality of players that represents most teams in that era.


Mavericks had Derek Harper and Mike Iuzzolino reppin their team, and the Kings had Old Man Tisdale

[ambchang]

I completely agree with you.

But with having to face bigger, faster, stronger players on an nightly basis, makes things a little different.

People keep mistaking what I am saying, thinking I am implying that 80s or 90s players wouldnt be good simply because of increased athleticism, which is not what I've said. I've said a combination of bigger, faster, stronger players, increased defensive strategy, a slower pace, and rule changes that allow zone and more traps/double teams will make it more difficult for players to dominate the way they used to be able to. MJ wouldn't be putting up the outrageous numbers annually like he once was. Magic's fast break wouldn't be as effective. Bird's post game wouldn't be as easy with the extra defensive attention that would be shot at him. They would all still be superstars in this era, but not be able to dominate like they used to.

I am not sure about that. Bird combated Michael Cooper in his days, and Cooper was pretty athletic. Jordan found ways to compete against athletic and nonathletic guys alike, and his toughest cover was Joe Dumars, a guy who really wasn't all that athletic but had great footwork and defensive fundamentals.

If a guy like Nash can run a fast break in the modern era, I am sure a guy like Magic can run it as well.

Take into effect the change in rules that really opens up the perimeter, you can argue that Bird, Magic, and particularly Jordan would feast even more on today's NBA.

[ambchang]

team concepts always beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise.

but Jordan was a 1-on-1 player. his 1-on-1 scoring would not be as effective with facing bigger, stronger, and faster players on a nightly basis, slower pace of game, along with greater defensive strategy that was allowed with the rule chance that allowed zone defense. He wouldn't be averaging 30+ppg on 50% shooting every single season like he was able to in his day.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s, because of a higher level of compe ion than the 90s, just like he wouldn't win 6 out of 8 in todays league, due to a higher level of compe ion.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s because he had Orlando Woolridge as his teammate facing against multiple HoFs in other teams.

[spurraider21]

how can you say david robinson wans't a true #1 scoring option when before his injury he never had a season averaging less than 23 ppg, shot a good percentage, and won a scoring le/mvp along the way? he averaged 30 and 5 assists in a season

[Chomag]

Take into effect the change in rules that really opens up the perimeter, you can argue that Bird, Magic, and particularly Jordan would feast even more on today's NBA.

I see your point, MJ would sleep walk into 60 point games with how crippled the defense is by the league rules in todays game. Wasn't he still scoring at a high clip in his 40's when he came out of retirement to play with the wizards for a bit?

[StrengthAndHonor]

how can you say david robinson wans't a true #1 scoring option when before his injury he never had a season averaging less than 23 ppg, shot a good percentage, and won a scoring le/mvp along the way? he averaged 30 and 5 assists in a season

Whoever said this needs to have their internet access revoke. That's hilarious and sad.

[midnightpulp]

so seeing what Kobe has done through this era it's not unimaginable that MJ would still be able to average 30 ppg on 50% shooting which you claim would not be sustainable in this era?

Jordan likely would.

Stretch is correct that individual perimeter defenders are more athletic and better overall today than they were in Jordan's era, but at the same time, perimeter offense is also much more sophisticated. Back then, the only plays coaches seemed to know for their star wing players/guards were ISOs, whether facing up at the top of the key or in the post, as in the case of Jordan in the Triangle.

Today, coaches design their offensive systems to maximize penetration. It's why stretch 4s and shooting bigs are in such high demand in the modern era. Put Jordan on the Spurs (who probably space the floor better than any team in the league) and he would be a points in the paint machine. Probably still not as efficient as Lebron, though, since James is the best penetrator in the history of the league, but Jordan would explode in this era, no doubt. Especially with all the free throws he would likely get.

[AchillesHeel]

I don't disagree that they would probably have a better advantage, but we have no facts to base it on. On the contrary, one could argue, that if a guy like MJ tried to be more bulky and match up with Lebron sizewise, how effective would he have been with his style of play? He certainly wouldn't have the range of motion that allowed him to do some of the incredibly acrobatic things he was able to do, or have the mid-range jumpshooting game that he had. We have to take things at face value.



judging by the fact that you think Wilt is a top 5 player of all time, you are a got living in the 60s who can't accept change.

Where did I say that? , I do think Wilt is a top 10 player all-time based on his influence and accolades in this league, no one dominated their era scoring-wise as much as Wilt did, and he went up against Kareem,Unseld,Russell a ton of times, his era was stacked with big men, tbh. He dominated a much younger Kareem in most of the H2H games and he averaged 8.6 assists a game for an entire season at 31, how many Centers have done that?

coming back to what's actually relevant, who has Lebron beaten that's so great? TOSB Duncan with an injured Parker and Manu choking Game 6 away? A young Kevin Durant,RWB and James Harden with one of the worst coaches in the league? An unexperienced Pacers team with ty coaching decisions last year?

Who has Lebron beaten that's so great? At least MJ defeated Magic(he was still great), Shaq(young Shaq was a ing beast), Stock & Malone twice. Barkley and Kevin Johnson..

cmon man, MJ had a lot of compe ion in his era, he won 6 rings in one decade. When was the last time someone did that? He was the true model of consistency.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Jordan likely would.

Stretch is correct that individual perimeter defenders are more athletic and better overall today than they were in Jordan's era, but at the same time, perimeter offense is also much more sophisticated. Back then, the only plays coaches seemed to know for their star wing players/guards were ISOs, whether facing up at the top of the key or in the post, as in the case of Jordan in the Triangle.

Today, coaches design their offensive systems to maximize penetration. It's why stretch 4s and shooting bigs are in such high demand in the modern era. Put Jordan on the Spurs (who probably space the floor better than any team in the league) and he would be a points in the paint machine. Probably still not as efficient as Lebron, though, since James is the best penetrator in the history of the league, but Jordan would explode in this era, no doubt. Especially with all the free throws he would likely get.

Sup Mid, I see you still rocking that Coach Kirby avatar

[midnightpulp]

Sup Mid, I see you still rocking that Coach Kirby avatar

Lol, yeah. Been too lazy to change it.

[StrengthAndHonor]

So Kobe in the 90s would be as good if not better than MJ?

Kobe would be Kobe with the same efficiency, maybe worse (FG%) since the defensive attention to wingmen in the 90's is much more restrictive , but he'd be much more revered, simply because RAW stats are the holy grail of production and intangibles like "playing hard through injury" are often valued in the lore of NBA legends.

[spurraider21]

Whoever said this needs to have their internet access revoke. That's hilarious and sad.

and who was the 2nd best player in the 90s? Olajuwon who never faced Jordan's Bulls? Ewing, who was a major choker? Robinson who was a great all around player but not a true #1 offensive option?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Oh that explains it, Phillip with his usual ty takes.

[AchillesHeel]

Oh that explains it, Phillip with his usual ty takes.

Easily the worst poster on ST.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I just can't fathom a guy averaging a good 25 PPG in half a decade (29.8 at one point) not being considered a first option is all I'm saying.

[Phillip]

coming back to what's actually relevant, who has Lebron beaten that's so great? TOSB Duncan with an injured Parker and Manu choking Game 6 away? A young Kevin Durant,RWB and James Harden with one of the worst coaches in the league? An unexperienced Pacers team with ty coaching decisions last year?

Who has Lebron beaten that's so great? At least MJ defeated Magic(he was still great), Shaq(young Shaq was a ing beast), Stock & Malone twice. Barkley and Kevin Johnson..

at you attempting to dismiss Lebrons compe ion as much as possible. If you are going to complain about TP being hurt, then you could say the same about Magic as I believe he wasn't 100% in that series either. If you wanna talk about Manu choking, you can say the same about Malone. If you want to talk about youth, young KD was pretty beastly too, but not mentally ready, just like young Shaq was beastly, but not mentally ready. Bad coaching? I don't recall the Suns having a particularly monster coach, or quite a few other teams.

[Phillip]

I just can't fathom a guy averaging a good 25 PPG in half a decade (29.8 at one point) not being considered a first option is all I'm saying.

So by that logic, Carmelo Anthony is a legit #1 option for a team with championship aspirations. How about Mark Aguirre, or Alex English, or Tracy McGrady? All huge scorers, but I don't think you want any of them to be the best player on your team.

D-Rob was mainly a scorer through mid-range jumpshooting and transition. He wasn't a player you could consistently dump the ball to in crunch time against elite defenses, and expect to carry your team to victory. He never won crap until Timmy came through and took over the #1 duties. Why? People weren't as scared of him as they were of Timmy.

[StrengthAndHonor]

If you want to talk about youth, young KD was pretty beastly too, but not mentally ready, just like young Shaq was beastly, but not mentally ready.

, you need to stop posting. You just compared a young Shaq to Durant

[StrengthAndHonor]

So by that logic, Carmelo Anthony is a legit #1 option for a team with championship aspirations. How about Mark Aguirre, or Alex English, or Tracy McGrady? All huge scorers, but I don't think you want any of them to be the best player on your team.

D-Rob was mainly a scorer through mid-range jumpshooting and transition. He wasn't a player you could consistently dump the ball to in crunch time against elite defenses, and expect to carry your team to victory. He never won crap until Timmy came through and took over the #1 duties. Why? People weren't as scared of him as they were of Timmy.

None of the players you mentioned won an MVP. Robinson did.

Failing to lead a team to championship as #1 guy should not be used to discredit a players role. That's a dated way of thinking of casual and ty NBA fans.

[Phillip]

, you need to stop posting. You just compared a young Shaq to Durant

In what way was I comparing them? The simple fact that they were both young up-and-coming superstars who were not mentally ready for their first finals appearance?

None of the players you mentioned won an MVP. Robinson did.

Derrick Rose won an MVP too. I don't want him leading a championship team either.

Failing to lead a team to championship as #1 guy should not be used to discredit a players role. That's a dated way of thinking of casual and ty NBA fans.

They failed to get there because no one was afraid of Robinson. He didn't draw defensive attention the way other elite bigs like Duncan, Olajuwon, and Shaq was able to.

[313]

In what way was I comparing them? The simple fact that they were both young up-and-coming superstars who were not mentally ready for their first finals appearance?





Derrick Rose won an MVP too. I don't want him leading a championship team either.



They failed to get there because no one was afraid of Robinson. He didn't draw defensive attention the way other elite bigs like Duncan, Olajuwon, and Shaq was able to.

Now you're just being disrespectful. DRob top 3 Centers all time. It's not his fault his team sucked. Who did he have? Vinny Del Negro and Rod Strickland?

[HarlemHeat37]

The people in this thread are judging 90s teams by their single best player, rather than their entire team..

David Robinson was an elite player, but have you seen his supporting casts in the 90s?..

Hakeem was one of the top 10 player of all-time, but outside of the year with Drexler, who the was his sidekick on those 90s teams?..

The Knicks had an equal or worse version of Monta Ellis in Jon Starks as their 2nd best player..

The Pacers were led by Reggie Miller, a low-end #2 guy in most strong NBA years, tbh..

Dad Killer is the greatest player of all-time, but he never played against a team that was anywhere close to the level of his team and never even played a team that was as well-coached as his team, tbh..

Also, I don't know why morons in this thread keep ignoring the fact that Lebron has had far more responsibility than any "greatest players" other than Duncan and Hakeem in certain years..not only has he had to defend opposing top players for long stretches, he's also had to lead the team in points, rebounds AND assists..

Not to mention that Wade has been just an above average player for most of the past 2 playoff runs, same with Bosh(AND Bosh missed the majority of their 1st le run)..Lebron's le supporting casts are probably in the bottom 5 all-time for a superstar player, tbh..

[Phillip]

Now you're just being disrespectful. DRob top 3 Centers all time. It's not his fault his team sucked. Who did he have? Vinny Del Negro and Rod Strickland?

top 3 center all time

Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Kareem, Duncan is 5 that are unquestionably superior already.

[Phillip]

The people in this thread are judging 90s teams by their single best player, rather than their entire team..

David Robinson was an elite player, but have you seen his supporting casts in the 90s?..

Hakeem was one of the top 10 player of all-time, but outside of the year with Drexler, who the was his sidekick on those 90s teams?..

The Knicks had an equal or worse version of Monta Ellis in Jon Starks as their 2nd best player..

The Pacers were led by Reggie Miller, a low-end #2 guy in most strong NBA years, tbh..

Dad Killer is the greatest player of all-time, but he never played against a team that was anywhere close to the level of his team and never even played a team that was as well-coached as his team, tbh..

Also, I don't know why morons in this thread keep ignoring the fact that Lebron has had far more responsibility than any "greatest players" other than Duncan and Hakeem in certain years..not only has he had to defend opposing top players for long stretches, he's also had to lead the team in points, rebounds AND assists..

Not to mention that Wade has been just an above average player for most of the past 2 playoff runs, same with Bosh(AND Bosh missed the majority of their 1st le run)..Lebron's le supporting casts are probably in the bottom 5 all-time for a superstar player, tbh..

Logic is too simple for some, it seems.

[313]

top 3 center all time

Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Kareem, Duncan is 5 that are unquestionably superior already.

I'd put him over Moses and Timmy is a PF.
DRob didn't have the support shaq had until Timmy but Olajuwon did school him.