Jimmy Graham bolting the Saints?

[BRHornet45]

They have alot of really good young players on offense and defense. You're trying to be misleading as usual.

he's trying to prove to everyone that he knows everything with his defense attorney-like spin tactics. I like Chinhook, I really do ... but he needs to calm down.

[Chinook]

no. no. no. you don't know everything little one. stop acting as if you do.

anyone with a brain can look at Brees contract (just like any other top QB) and realize that cap space is going to be a down the road. that's the price teams have to pay in today's QB driven NFL.... and Brees is worth every dime of it.

I laughed at Baltimore for signing an average QB at best in Joe Flacco to a contract like that because they are going to be stuck with an under achieving QB who will struggle to complete 60% of his passes, struggle to throw for 4,000 yards, and struggle to throw more touchdowns than interceptions. at least with the likes of Brees and Rodgers you're getting greatness for the money.

like I said before ... the Saints have been the best team in the NFL at finding talent for cheap. they will be fine and if needed Brees will restructure his contract. dude made $11M last year from his endorsements. he got most of his contract money in the first couple of years and will be willing to do what it takes to help. alone is a huge plus when you consider that in today's world most athlete have a high sense of en lement and wouldn't even consider restructuring their contract.

So you don't realize what restructuring is either? It's not a pay cut. It's an agreement to turn salary into a bonus and spread the proration across the remaining years of the contract. Of course Brees wants to do that. He gets a big check in the off-season instead of having 17 moderate checks. There's nothing heroic about taking even more upfront money.

And no. Not every QB deal balloons down the road. Brady and Manning have flat contracts. It's just these new $20 Million QBs that have the awful cap hits. If Brees really wanted to help the team out, he'd have taken a small bonus and more guaranteed salary to keep smaller cap hits down the road.

Once again, you show only superficial knowledge of the game, which would be fine if you understood that and stayed in your place. But instead you tried to bring me into deep water and drowned yourself. I never said the Saints were a bad team or that they were going to suck. I said they are in cap and will have a hard time keeping their best players. Then you try to team-smack me, which is hilarious because the Ravens are in much better financial shape than the Saints even though I hate Flacco's deal. Finally you flaunt your ignorance of the cap and prorations, exposing yourself as the very thing you accused me of being.

I don't know everything about football. I don't even know a lot. But damn, you're sitting around with an NFL dunce cap right now.

[Pelicans78]

Graham's an interesting case. Two years ago he almost single-handedly beat the 49ers in the playoffs and had a great 1st half of the season this year before getting slowed down in big games against the Patriots and Seahawks. He was bothered with an injury most of the 2nd half of the year. He's not going anywhere right now and they will franchise him this offseason, but they're probably going to have issues with keeping their RT Zach Strief who was arguably their best o-lineman this year. They're gonna release alot of guys like Vilma, Will Smith, and Harper who aren't difference makers. Question will be guys like Jabari Greer and Pierre Thomas who's one of my favorite Saints ever, but looks to be not as explosive in the backfield as Ingram or Robinson. Another question mark is Sproles. After his knee injury against the Jets, he wasn't nearly as effective. Is he worth his contract? I don't know because I would rather see this team be more balanced now instead of trying to heavily rely on the pass when the o-line isn't as good as years past.

Either way, the le is just as bad as when people said both Brees and Payton were leaving.

And as far as the declining franchise stuff, the Saints are just as young as the Panthers if not younger with an elite QB. The Panthers showed how legit they were getting embarassed at home in their first playoff game.

[Chinook]

They have alot of really good young players on offense and defense. You're trying to be misleading as usual.

Who does, the Saints? I guess. Doesn't mean their financial future is very bright. I never disputed that from BR. But if they're in cap WHILE having cheap young talent, that's actually a bad thing. Where is the financial relief going yo come from?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

And as far as the declining franchise stuff, the Saints are just as young as the Panthers if not younger with an elite QB. The Panthers showed how legit they were getting embarassed at home in their first playoff game.

80% of our team had never been in a playoff game before. We won the division, it can only go up from here.

I may have been exaggerating with the "decline" comment, but BR won't quit talking - so it is what it is.

[Pelicans78]

The Saints are always in cap every season. Its not anything new. Ever since Brees and Payton arrived, they've rarely been flexible with the cap. Brees was already making 10+ million when he first signed with the Saints. And they do what they always do. Draft good young players throughout the draft, get rid of veterans who aren't capable anymore and keep winning game. Their future is actually pretty bright considering the number of young talented players they have on both sides of the ball. They've never had great skilled players around Brees with the exception of Graham and Sproles two years ago and always had a premier offense. They do need to get a new center and resign Strief at RT as well as get another WR to help out even though its not a dire need. Defensively they need a CB and a LB, but that's pretty much it. They have studs on the D-Line and with Vaccaro at safety.

[Chinook]

Saints fans, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm not saying your team sucks. The Steelers managed to be a dominant team for years while in cap . But even you guys have to be concerned that the team is having a hard time giving ou ONE big contract to a skills player. Almost every team can still afford one.

[Pelicans78]

Who does, the Saints? I guess. Doesn't mean their financial future is very bright. I never disputed that from BR. But if they're in cap WHILE having cheap young talent, that's actually a bad thing. Where is the financial relief going yo come from?

They have alot of veterans who aren't contributing like Vilma, Will Smith, and Harper making alot of money and are prime to get cut in the offseason, especially the guys on the Super Bowl team who aren't contributing like once before. This is the same story every season.

[Pelicans78]

Saints fans, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm not saying your team sucks. The Steelers managed to be a dominant team for years while in cap . But even you guys have to be concerned that the team is having a hard time giving ou ONE big contract to a skills player. Almost every team can still afford one.

This isn't anything new. They've dealt with this the past few seasons. Graham will be signed long-term eventually.

[Pelicans78]

80% of our team had never been in a playoff game before. We won the division, it can only go up from here.

I may have been exaggerating with the "decline" comment, but BR won't quit talking - so it is what it is.

And the Saints have a number of young guys as well across the board. This team will only get better next year when the release non-contributing veterans and build around their young defense.

[Chinook]

I guess. But Brees has had modest cap hits until now. We're talking $30 Million for his 2016 number. That's a whole new level of cap . The only way of getting around that is to extend him. Flacco's agent is bragging because the Ravens face that same situation in the fourth year of Joe's deal. But eventually something has to give. Building around that much salary for one position is not sustainable.

[Pelicans78]

I guess. But Brees has had modest cap hits until now. We're talking $30 Million for his 2016 number. That's a whole new level of cap . The only way of getting around that is to extend him. Flacco's agent is bragging because the Ravens face that same situation in the fourth year of Joe's deal. But eventually something has to give. Building around that much salary for one position is not sustainable.

I agree that his contract will really be a killer in the future if not restructured since the good young players they have on rookie contracts will expire. Plus, the Saints offense wasn't nearly as good this season as in years past.

[BRHornet45]

So you don't realize what restructuring is either? It's not a pay cut. It's an agreement to turn salary into a bonus and spread the proration across the remaining years of the contract.

again you're making accusations with nothing to stand on. when did I ever once say that restructuring a contract means taking a pay cut? please show me where I said or even hinted that.

oh that's right ... you just pulled it out of your ass. lol at you just making up accusing me of thinking that restructuring means the Brees is going to say "hey guys! I'll take $5M less this year!!!" ..... restructuring temporarily fixes the "problem" and helps for the time being. the bottom line is that most teams who have star players with contracts like that are going to have issues to deal with. it's how their management and the willingness of the player to restructure the deal is what can makes the difference .... as I said here ....


"anyone with a brain can look at Brees contract (just like any other top QB) and realize that cap space is going to be a down the road. that's the price teams have to pay in today's QB driven NFL"

if I made one mistake in the line above it was the "(just like any other top QB)" line. I should have been more specific and left out Manning and Brady ... as I noticed you brought up ....

And no. Not every QB deal balloons down the road. Brady and Manning have flat contracts. It's just these new $20 Million QBs that have the awful cap hits. If Brees really wanted to help thr team out, he'd have taken a small bonus and more guaranteed salary to keeo smaller cap hitd down the road.

as expected you brought them both up as your saving grace, but you conveniently failed to also mention the fact that both of them have have one BIG thing in common that QB's like Brees, Rodgers, etc. do not .... they both have already received their huge paydays in the past. Brees and Rodgers had not so who can blame them for wanting to get paid? Manning is 37 years old and at the end of his career and Tom Brady has a wife that makes $40M+ every year.

[Chinook]

I agree that his contract will really be a killer in the future if not restructured since the good young players they have on rookie contracts will expire. Plus, the Saints offense wasn't nearly as good this season as in years past.

Even restructures only go so far. Eventually, the cap number is gigantic, and it's all bonus proration which means it can't be spread out any longer. That's why I hope the Ravens release Flacco in 2016 or 2017 instead of restructuring. I don't want to see the team go down the Steelers road for a slightly above-average player.

[BRHornet45]

I guess. But Brees has had modest cap hits until now. We're talking $30 Million for his 2016 number. That's a whole new level of cap . The only way of getting around that is to extend him. Flacco's agent is bragging because the Ravens face that same situation in the fourth year of Joe's deal. But eventually something has to give. Building around that much salary for one position is not sustainable.

there is no doubting that both 2015 and 2016 will be a headache with the cap space, but that's still a couple years away. Loomis has been excellent and moving the money around to make things work in the past. I am confident in his ability to do so down the road as well.

we're talking about keeping Jimmy Graham here ... if the Saints can keep him for another year or two I would be happy. he doesn't make or break the team. as much as I would love to keep him long term, I'm not entirely sure that he will be worth the money down the road. if the Saints can continue to produce young talent, have Brees make them stars, and get the best out of them for their first 3-4 years in the NFL while they're being paid on their rookie contracts ... I would much rather take that route than signing Graham to a huge contract.

Brees is where the big money is supposed to go. just like Rodgers is where the big money is supposed to go for the Packers. they'll make it work.

[Chinook]

again you're making accusations with nothing to stand on. when did I ever once say that restructuring a contract means taking a pay cut? please show me where I said or even hinted that.

oh that's right ... you just pulled it out of your ass. lol at you just making up accusing me of thinking that restructuring means the Brees is going to say "hey guys! I'll take $5M less this year!!!" ..... restructuring temporarily fixes the "problem" and helps for the time being. the bottom line is that most teams who have star players with contracts like that is going to have issues to deal with. it's how their management and the willingness of the player to restructure the deal is what can makes the difference .... as I said here ....


"anyone with a brain can look at Brees contract (just like any other top QB) and realize that cap space is going to be a down the road. that's the price teams have to pay in today's QB driven NFL"

if I made one mistake in the line above it was the "(just like any other top QB)" line. I should have been more specific and left out Manning and Brady ... as I noticed you brought up ....



as expected you brought them both up as your saving grace, but you conveniently failed to also mention the fact that both of them have have one BIG thing in common that QB's like Brees, Rodgers, etc. do not .... they have both have already received their huge paydays in the past. Brees and Rodgers had not so who can blame them for wanting to get paid? Manning is 37 years old and at the end of his career and Tom Brady has a wife that makes $40M+ every year.

Look, BR. I'm gonna go ahead an apologize if I misunderstood you. If you did already know everything I said and just had a differing opinion on it, I apologize. As I was saying to 78, it's not that I'm trying to say that there's no way the Saints can recover or that I take pleasure in that. And I'm certainly not saying Brees and Flacco have equal value.

But I find your nonchalance about restructuring Brees' cap hit repeatedly distrubing because I think it's a losig strategy in the long run. If the Saints have to restructure Brees already, they'll be forced to keep doing it. It's a slippery slope. Baltimore still has two years before Flacco's cap hit gets up that high, so I'd say the Ravens are in a better position than the Saints are even though New Orleans is likely to get a much better return from their QB.

But yeah, not being able to pay Graham would be concerning even if losing him wouldn't be.

[BRHornet45]

Look, BR. I'm gonna go ahead an apologize if I misunderstood you. If you did already know everything I said and just had a differing opinion on it, I apologize. As I was saying to 78, it's not that I'm trying to say that there's no way the Saints can recover or that I take pleasure in that. And I'm certainly not saying Brees and Flacco have equal value.

But I find your nonchalance about restructuring Brees' cap hit repeatedly distrubing because I think it's a losig strategy in the long run. If the Saints have to restructure Brees already, they'll be forced to keep doing it. It's a slippery slope. Baltimore still has two years before Flacco's cap hit gets up that high, so I'd say the Ravens are in a better position than the Saints are even though New Orleans is likely to get a much better return from their QB.

But yeah, not being able to pay Graham would be concerning even if losing him wouldn't be.

no beef. sorry if I wasn't as specific about it, but I certainly know the difference between taking a pay cut and restructuring.

regardless there is nothing any fan can do but and moan about contracts like that. Brees is worth every dime, but the cap space down the road is going to be a . again however I am confident in their ability to make it work. Graham is a big time player, but if we have to let him go a year or two down the road then I think it would be the right move considering the Saints would have had him on the team during his youngest years before entering his 30's (a lot of people don't realize that he's 27 years old, not 24 years old like Gronk) and that's why I'm not 100% on signing him long term. I don't see Graham's numbers continuing to increase in the next few years. teams are starting to figure him out and although he is still a beast MOST of the time, when his receiving game gets shut down we are stuck with an average at best blocking tight end.

they need to focus on improving the offensive line, continue to develop the young receivers who will be dirt cheap for the next few years (Stills, Toon, etc.), and draft wisely.

[spurraider21]

So you think the Steelers route of kicking the can down the road is the smart strategy? You're seriously bragging about that? Of course he's willing to restructure. Every player is willing to get their base salary turned into a bonus. I'm sure Flacco will be willing to restructure as well. It's great for the players, but it's a tool used extensively only by desperate teams trying to pry open a shrinking window.

true as can be. this is how you know Al Davis was re ed post-2000. he was restructuring deal after deal when we were ripping off 4-12 seasons (consecutive 8-8 years somewhere in there, but still)

[Clipper Nation]

80% of our team had never been in a playoff game before. We won the division, it can only go up from here.

I may have been exaggerating with the "decline" comment, but BR won't quit talking - so it is what it is.

The Saints are young too and still won more playoff games than this year

[BRHornet45]

The Saints are young too and still won more playoff games than this year

the Panthers were a guaranteed one and done in the playoffs. there was absolutely noway in they would beat the 49ers, Seahawks, Saints, Eagles, or Packers in the post season. the Panthers were not built for the playoffs. that outstanding defense can only take them so far as we all saw. I know they say "defense wins championships", but when you have a gimmick QB all that goes out the window.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

the Panthers were a guaranteed one and done in the playoffs. there was absolutely noway in they would beat the 49ers, Seahawks, Saints, Eagles, or Packers in the post season. the Panthers were not built for the playoffs. that outstanding defense can only take them so far as we all saw. I know they say "defense wins championships", but when you have a gimmick QB all that goes out the window.

lol theres no difference between carolina and seattle/san fran other than experience. you will see when similar results occur next year while brees is having a declining year tbh

[Clipper Nation]

lol theres no difference between carolina and seattle/san fran other than experience.

[Chinook]

The Panthers are in a weird position because their money is tied up in weird places. They haven't paid Cam or the defense yet. They're not like Seattle and SanFran who have a couple of seasons to get the last out of their prime defensive players before they have to give bad money to their QBs. Carolina is in cap jail with most of their best players yet to be paid. It's going to be tricky for them to both keep their team together beyond next season and add the necessary pieces to be a legitimate contender.

And that's assuming Cam takes the next step with only moderate upgrades to his receiving corps.

[Pelicans78]

lol theres no difference between carolina and seattle/san fran other than experience. you will see when similar results occur next year while brees is having a declining year tbh

Not true at all. San Fran has more skilled players across the board and the Seahawks have a much better secondary than the Panthers. Those two teams are clearly ahead of Carolina right now and it's not about experience. The Panthers need to improve their skilled positions outside of TE and their secondary has no playmakers. All they have is their front 7 and Cam running around making plays. But the two other teams have a bit more right now even though it will change once Wilson and Kaep get out of their rookie deals.

[Pelicans78]

The Panthers are in a weird position because their money is tied up in weird places. They haven't paid Cam or the defense yet. They're not like Seattle and SanFran who have a couple of seasons to get the last out of their prime defensive players before they have to give bad money to their QBs. Carolina is in cap jail with most of their best players yet to be paid. It's going to be tricky for them to both keep their team together beyond next season and add the necessary pieces to be a legitimate contender.

And that's assuming Cam takes the next step with only moderate upgrades to his receiving corps.

Its not happening for them unless Cam improves substantially as a passer. This team is primed to miss the playoffs next season if Cam doesn't improve the offense.