Texans will drop Football according to Mel Kiper

[FkLA]

brees is the only one you can use as an argument tbh. he also is as different from JM as it gets and you know it. You have no size, no deep ball (35+ yd), no composure in the pocket and yet you want him in the first round..

Have you seen him play? Who told you he can't throw past 35 yds?

And yeah Brees is a different player but your post basically read 'even if he fixed his flaws and became more like Brees he wouldn't be able to see past the dline'.

that just makes no sense to me, it also makes no sense to say he is the best qb in the draft, it's not like he plays against the other qbs, he plays against the rest of the league. If you think the qb class is ty, then don't draft any in the first round. I understand drafting in the first round Carr, Teddy or Bortles but i can't understand how can you justify Manziel. And that doesn't mean any of those three is better than him.

Huh ?

[Raven]

Have you seen him play? Who told you he can't throw past 35 yds?

And yeah Brees is a different player but your post basically read 'even if he fixed his flaws and became more like Brees he wouldn't be able to see past the dline'.



Huh ?

you can argue that if you want tbh, i can't tell you in an absolute way that he can't, but you can also tell that monkeyballers are the future of the league and i still couldn't say you are wrong even if it's obviously wrong.
well on those three you can argue about things, on manziel you can't because his size issues and scrambling ways are undeniable. You can argue about things like teddy is going to be a game manager or bortles has a good arm, these things really are up for debate and if someone thinks they are the deal then it's fine to draft them in the first round, but with JM there is much less to discuss about, what is obvious it's obvious.

[FkLA]

you can argue that if you want tbh, i can't tell you in an absolute way that he can't, but you can also tell that monkeyballers are the future of the league and i still couldn't say you are wrong even if it's obviously wrong.

It is not arguable at all. Football's arm isn't elite but it also isn't Tebow/Vince-esque.

How much did you see of him at A&M ?

well on those three you can argue about things, on manziel you can't because his size issues and scrambling ways are undeniable. You can argue about things like teddy is going to be a game manager or bortles has a good arm, these things really are up for debate and if someone thinks they are the deal then it's fine to draft them in the first round, but with JM there is much less to discuss about, what is obvious it's obvious.

You also can't argue about the level of compe ion Bortles and Bridgewater faced. Meanwhile Johnny was slicing up SEC defenses (through the air and ground) on a weekly basis. Johnny was more dominant against better compe ion, that is undeniable.

[Raven]

It is not arguable at all. Football's arm isn't elite but it also isn't Tebow/Vince-esque.

How much did you see of him at A&M ?



You also can't argue about the level of compe ion Bortles and Bridgewater faced. Meanwhile Johnny was slicing up SEC defenses (through the air and ground) on a weekly basis. Johnny was more dominant against better compe ion, that is undeniable.

i saw 5 games, the team somehow had great streams all year so i happened to come across his games pretty often. And you don't need to be tebow to not have an nfl arm, there are a lot of nfl starters who suck at throwing, that's not really hard to find. I'm trying to see a point as to why would a gm draft a qb with a bad arm and bad size in the first round. even if you happen to misjude all his other issues, i can't find out how can someone avoid those. Then again i was prepared to bet on no qb in the first round last year, and somehow buffalo drafted a monkeyballer who can't throw (but at least has some arm strength), so i'm not saying that won't happen anymore.

[FkLA]

i saw 5 games, the team somehow had great streams all year so i happened to come across his games pretty often. And you don't need to be tebow to not have an nfl arm, there are a lot of nfl starters who suck at throwing, that's not really hard to find. I'm trying to see a point as to why would a gm draft a qb with a bad arm and bad size in the first round. even if you happen to misjude all his other issues, i can't find out how can someone avoid those. Then again i was prepared to bet on no qb in the first round last year, and somehow buffalo drafted a monkeyballer who can't throw (but at least has some arm strength), so i'm not saying that won't happen anymore.

His arm strength isn't an issue. You're way off base there. The consensus is that he has a good arm tbh.

[BUMP]

Raven is always all over the place in his arguments

[Raven]

His arm strength isn't an issue. You're way off base there. The consensus is that he has a good arm tbh.

"good" arm strength is not good enough at the next level.

[FkLA]

"good" arm strength is not good enough at the next level.

Not good enough for what ?

[spurraider21]

if Manziel can be as good as Russell Wilson he's more than worth the pick tbh

[djohn2oo8]

"good" arm strength is not good enough at the next level.

Actually, accuracy matters more than Arm strength.

[Raven]

Not good enough for what ?

for being an nfl franchise qb, which is what i expect to have in a qb drafted in the first round.

[Raven]

Actually, accuracy matters more than Arm strength.

fair point, but i didn't deny that.

[JoeTait75]

"good" arm strength is not good enough at the next level.

Arm strength is hardly a be-all, end-all. Derek Anderson and Brandon Weeden have cannons for arms and you see how much good it's done them. And nothing I've seen from JFF indicates that he has a Colt McCoy-esque noodle arm or anything like that. "Good" arm strength is good enough if you're accurate and make good decisions.

[Raven]

Arm strength is hardly a be-all, end-all. Derek Anderson and Brandon Weeden have cannons for arms and you see how much good it's done them. And nothing I've seen from JFF indicates that he has a Colt McCoy-esque noodle arm or anything like that. "Good" arm strength is good enough if you're accurate and make good decisions.

where did i say it's a be all? Weeden's problem is that his release is slow as .. I wouldn't say Manziel is much better in that... manziel will be a huge bust, that's all i'm saying. You're free to call me out if i'm wrong in four years or so.

[FkLA]

You're en led to your opinion but your reasoning (weak arm, slow release) for why be a bust is what makes no sense tbh.

[Chinook]

Eh. He would have one of the best receivers in football to throw to plus a very good tight end, a Pro Bowl left tackle (Joe Thomas is overrated imo but still a very good player) and if Brian Hoyer proves to be a competent place-holder (which he very well might be) he wouldn't have to get thrown in the fire right away. I get that the Browns look like a complete mess from the outside but there is talent here to work with. Actually, I don't even think talent is the biggest issue with this team right now.

Not even close to the biggest issue. They are about two years behind the Bengals on the talent curve a good coach and another solid draft, and they SHOULD be a playoff team. If it weren't for the Cleveland stink (no offense), they'd be a great ready-made destination for a free-agent QB like Denver and Minnesota were. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be another Manning or Farve on the market in 2015. Maybe Kaep is the best they could do.

[JoeTait75]

where did i say it's a be all? Weeden's problem is that his release is slow as .. I wouldn't say Manziel is much better in that... manziel will be a huge bust, that's all i'm saying. You're free to call me out if i'm wrong in four years or so.

I have my own concerns about JFF. I think he could be a turnover machine for at least his first few years in the league. He may have that Namath/Favre mentality where he'll try and make a play when the play isn't necessarily there. But I believe he has NFL skills and of all the QBs that will be at the top of the draft he just seems like the most dynamic playmaker. The other guys- Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr- they just don't really stand out to me.

[JoeTait75]

Not even close to the biggest issue. They are about two years behind the Bengals on the talent curve a good coach and another solid draft, and they SHOULD be a playoff team. If it weren't for the Cleveland stink (no offense), they'd be a great ready-made destination for a free-agent QB like Denver and Minnesota were. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be another Manning or Farve on the market in 2015. Maybe Kaep is the best they could do.

A lot of it is cultural. They've lost so much for so long that it's become ingrained. And there has never been an urgency about winning- it's always been about two or three years down the road. There's a mentality here that it's okay to lose because the team is always building for some time in the future. It's never been about winning now. It's always about "development" or "learning the system" or "progress" or whatever. It's a losing mentality that permeates the roster, the front office, ownership, even the fans. I think this team has enough talent to be compe ive- not great, but compe ive- right now. But the mentality has to change.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I have my own concerns about JFF. I think he could be a turnover machine for at least his first few years in the league. He may have that Namath/Favre mentality where he'll try and make a play when the play isn't necessarily there. But I believe he has NFL skills and of all the QBs that will be at the top of the draft he just seems like the most dynamic playmaker. The other guys- Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr- they just don't really stand out to me.

Do you think there's any chance they keep Alex Mack? He's gonna get PAID by one of the many teams with huge cap room if Cleveland doesn't franchise him.

It would be great to see Cleveland draft Kadeem Carey in the 2nd or 3rd to replace T-Rich and be successful with him. Maybe I'm just being a homer, but I think Kadeem has a few special years in him. He'll have the same short shelf life running backs have today, but I can't remember a RB who hits holes as quickly as he does and with as much explosion. He won't have the problem young RBs have where he bounces around in the backfield all day, he's a natural downhill runner.

[Pelicans78]

Do you think there's any chance they keep Alex Mack? He's gonna get PAID by one of the many teams with huge cap room if Cleveland doesn't franchise him.

It would be great to see Cleveland draft Kadeem Carey in the 2nd or 3rd to replace T-Rich and be successful with him. Maybe I'm just being a homer, but I think Kadeem has a few special years in him. He'll have the same short shelf life running backs have today, but I can't remember a RB who hits holes as quickly as he does and with as much explosion. He won't have the problem young RBs have where he bounces around in the backfield all day, he's a natural downhill runner.

I totally agree about Carey. He is fantastic and will be a perennial Pro Bowler if healthy and playing with a competent organization.

[JoeTait75]

Do you think there's any chance they keep Alex Mack? He's gonna get PAID by one of the many teams with huge cap room if Cleveland doesn't franchise him.

No, I think he's gone. I don't think the regime wants to give a center big money and I don't think he wants to be here anyway. My guess is they'll franchise T.J. Ward and let Mack walk.

As far as running backs go, naturally everyone around here wants them to take Carlos Hyde. What I like about the current regime, though, is that they don't cater to the fans. If they like Kadeem Carey better than Hyde they'll take him. I haven't seen Arizona play enough to give an educated opinion.

[FkLA]

Carey is the truth tbh.

[Chinook]

A lot of it is cultural. They've lost so much for so long that it's become ingrained. And there has never been an urgency about winning- it's always been about two or three years down the road. There's a mentality here that it's okay to lose because the team is always building for some time in the future. It's never been about winning now. It's always about "development" or "learning the system" or "progress" or whatever. It's a losing mentality that permeates the roster, the front office, ownership, even the fans. I think this team has enough talent to be compe ive- not great, but compe ive- right now. But the mentality has to change.

That's why a legit vet QB would be so good. They bring hope and credibility. Sure Manziel brings hope, but he's still very likely to bust. I guess that's a risk they have to take.

[spurraider21]

i hope the raiders sign mack and resign veldheer. Stefen Wisniewski had a good rookie season at left guard. he's been solid at center, but the problem is since he shifted over, left guard became a massive hole. with Mack at center, Wiz can slide back and we could have a pretty beastly left side of the line

[Raven]

A lot of it is cultural. They've lost so much for so long that it's become ingrained. And there has never been an urgency about winning- it's always been about two or three years down the road. There's a mentality here that it's okay to lose because the team is always building for some time in the future. It's never been about winning now. It's always about "development" or "learning the system" or "progress" or whatever. It's a losing mentality that permeates the roster, the front office, ownership, even the fans. I think this team has enough talent to be compe ive- not great, but compe ive- right now. But the mentality has to change.

i agree with that and that's why i consider this the worst spot for JM. He'd try to force his way to a win by "cheating", which would lead to even more TOs.