Game thoughts Bulls @Spurs Jan 29

[wildbill2u]

In Every game the player Ayers is "guarding" takes him out on the high post, sometimes as far away as the 3pt arc and then simply drives past him for a layup. Or they take him off the pick and roll. He seems to be limited to a range of about two feet around the basket on defense and offense.

Boris is back to 'no shoot Boris" mode. He tried a few determined drives or post moves to get inside but without much in the way of results. If he continues to shoot 4 shots per game we are going to be easily outscored at that position at a time when we are lacking in scorers for him to pass to. His value as a passer is negated by the current roster.

Belinelli has lost his confidence. He was shooting as a reflexive catch and shoot, but now is being chased off the line and settling for long 2s. His matador defense often consists of waving at his man as they go by him.

Joseph and Mills are simply too small to play defense against bigger stronger players for long periods of time on the court. Their effort is often there, but eventually they get isolated against a taller opponent who just beats them one on one. They try hard, but the old adage that a good big man will beat a good small man over time is evident and their deficiencies can't be hidden, especially when Bonner and Ayers are the players supposed to cover as the second line of defense.

The Spurs are playing guys for long minutes together who Pop would ordinarily be spotting in among starters.We may be able to beat some bad teams this way, but we're not going to beat the better teams and some of the middle range teams are going to be licking their chops to think they may get a win against the Spurs.

It is going to be a very long middle of the season.

[cd021]

In Every game the player Ayers is "guarding" takes him out on the high post, sometimes as far away as the 3pt arc and then simply drives past him for a layup. Or they take him off the pick and roll. He seems to be limited to a range of about two feet around the basket on defense and offense.

Boris is back to 'no shoot Boris" mode. He tried a few determined drives or post moves to get inside but without much in the way of results. If he continues to shoot 4 shots per game we are going to be easily outscored at that position at a time when we are lacking in scorers for him to pass to. His value as a passer is negated by the current roster.

Belinelli has lost his confidence. He was shooting as a reflexive catch and shoot, but now is being chased off the line and settling for long 2s. His matador defense often consists of waving at his man as they go by him.

Joseph and Mills are simply too small to play defense against bigger stronger players for long periods of time on the court. Their effort is often there, but eventually they get isolated against a taller opponent who just beats them one on one. They try hard, but the old adage that a good big man will beat a good small man over time is evident and their deficiencies can't be hidden, especially when Bonner and Ayers are the players supposed to cover as the second line of defense.

The Spurs are playing guys for long minutes together who Pop would ordinarily be spotting in among starters.We may be able to beat some bad teams this way, but we're not going to beat the better teams and some of the middle range teams are going to be licking their chops to think they may get a win against the Spurs.

It is going to be a very long middle of the season.

Props on a great take. I agree 100%

[DMC]

In Every game the player Ayers is "guarding" takes him out on the high post, sometimes as far away as the 3pt arc and then simply drives past him for a layup. Or they take him off the pick and roll. He seems to be limited to a range of about two feet around the basket on defense and offense.

Boris is back to 'no shoot Boris" mode. He tried a few determined drives or post moves to get inside but without much in the way of results. If he continues to shoot 4 shots per game we are going to be easily outscored at that position at a time when we are lacking in scorers for him to pass to. His value as a passer is negated by the current roster.

Belinelli has lost his confidence. He was shooting as a reflexive catch and shoot, but now is being chased off the line and settling for long 2s. His matador defense often consists of waving at his man as they go by him.

Joseph and Mills are simply too small to play defense against bigger stronger players for long periods of time on the court. Their effort is often there, but eventually they get isolated against a taller opponent who just beats them one on one. They try hard, but the old adage that a good big man will beat a good small man over time is evident and their deficiencies can't be hidden, especially when Bonner and Ayers are the players supposed to cover as the second line of defense.

The Spurs are playing guys for long minutes together who Pop would ordinarily be spotting in among starters.We may be able to beat some bad teams this way, but we're not going to beat the better teams and some of the middle range teams are going to be licking their chops to think they may get a win against the Spurs.

It is going to be a very long middle of the season.

yep

[Prime Time]

It's still a valid point. The big 3 "system" is the big 3 + role players. Remove one side of that equation and you have a problem. I don't get the point of your objection.

Fans implied TP/Manu/Duncan MADE all the role players relevant, as if they would be scrubs without them. But the role players have played well without the Big 3 before (Last year vs. Miami/Chicago, This year vs. GSW) But I'm yet to see a convincing performance by this current team. My objection would be - Spurs fans are spoiled, Leonard/Green/Splitter saved this franchise.

[DMC]

Fans implied TP/Manu/Duncan MADE all the role players relevant, as if they would be scrubs without them.

They did and they would be irrelevant. Some were irrelevant already as evidence.

But the role players have played well without the Big 3 before (Last year vs. Miami/Chicago, This year vs. GSW) But I'm yet to see a convincing performance by this current team. My objection would be - Spurs fans are spoiled, Leonard/Green/Splitter saved this franchise.

Playing well in a game without the big 3 and having a winning season without the big 3 are completely different things.

Your objection is re ed as .

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I didn't love Baynes performance. I may have missed some of those screens but if you believe that he would have had 16pts and 8 boards then we are done here.

That plus 14 is highly misleading. As i stated, the Bulls went through a funk (as they usually do) they hit 1 basket in 6 minutes. The Spurs (mostly Mills) helped the Spurs get back into the game.

He doesn't show very much outside of garbage time. He is an foul machine and turnover prone as well. At the moment, he is a situation big and that situation is usually garbage time.

I have no idea what he would get if he played 36 mpg. You just in the idea that he might get 8 but then at the same time on getting 2 at the rate that would get him 8. Outside of two games where he shot like warmed over , his shot has been pretty good. Up until the Htown hack a shack debacle he had been keeping his fouls down. Look at the log.

You did miss the screens because it was how Patty was getting open. You should pay attention to Baynes play help defense and protect the rim. He does it better than anyone else on the bench. You seem bent on giving credit to everyone but Baynes for his stretch.

[cd021]

I have no idea what he would get if he played 36 mpg. You just in the idea that he might get 8 but then at the same time on getting 2 at the rate that would get him 8. Outside of two games where he shot like warmed over , his shot has been pretty good. Up until the Htown hack a shack debacle he had been keeping his fouls down. Look at the log.

You did miss the screens because it was how Patty was getting open. You should pay attention to Baynes play help defense and protect the rim. He does it better than anyone else on the bench. You seem bent on giving credit to everyone but Baynes for his stretch.

bent? really? Why would i even bother to hold a vendetta against Baynes? Read my post on the last page. I posted some advanced stats of Baynes. Both him and Ayers have played rather poorly. Baynes foul rate is 5.4, has a - 6 net rating and while he does grab boards at a high rate (11 per 36 minutes) (thus my ing about 2 boards) he seldom blocks shots (.4 block rate) gets to the line or even shoots well from the field (44%).

He can hit a jumper and is surprisingly good athlete given his body type. He does intrigue but he hasn't shown anything to suggest he is backup center material, on the Spurs at least.

BTW you mentioned that his per 36 minutes for the Bulls game (rebounding)was 8. I used that same Principal to come up with the 16pts and 8 rebounds numbers. I didn't give credit to De Colo, or Ayers, I also didn't give a glowing review of Diaw or Bellinelli.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

bent? really? Why would i even bother to hold a vendetta against Baynes? Read my post on the last page. I posted some advanced stats of Baynes. Both him and Ayers have played rather poorly. Baynes foul rate is 5.4, has a - 6 net rating and while he does grab boards at a high rate (11 per 36 minutes) (thus my ing about 2 boards) he seldom blocks shots (.4 block rate) gets to the line or even shoots well from the field (44%).

He can hit a jumper and is surprisingly good athlete given his body type. He does intrigue but he hasn't shown anything to suggest he is backup center material, on the Spurs at least.

BTW you mentioned that his per 36 minutes for the Bulls game (rebounding)was 8. I used that same Principal to come up with the 16pts and 8 rebounds numbers. I didn't give credit to De Colo, or Ayers, I also didn't give a glowing review of Diaw or Bellinelli.

You said you would have liked to see better than 2 boards. And you are cherry picking bad stats. I can cherry pick good stats as his per36 numbers for points assists and rebounds are excellent. but it the per36 fouls look bad so fixate on those.

And ffs I wish people would stop using fouls as the standard by which all players should be judged. As if that is not something all aggressive players go through when they are learning the league or something that is commonly improved upon with simple experience. Nevermind that he has clearly improved in that regard. The Houston game was an aberration of his recent norm.

[Kidd K]

Bulls were missing 1 of their top 8 players.

Spurs were missing 4 of their top 6 and just played a hard game the night before.

Not gonna win every game under those cir stances.

[HarlemHeat37]

It would be nice if Baynes added some rim protection, considering he's a 7-foot "bruiser", tbh..

Limited sample size, but 53% against him at the rim is pretty terrible, so far..

I'm always an advocate of giving players a chance to earn a spot, though, and Ayres certainly hasn't done anything to warrant a permanent spot in the rotation..

[Prime Time]

They did and they would be irrelevant. Some were irrelevant already as evidence.

Playing well in a game without the big 3 and having a winning season without the big 3 are completely different things.

Your objection is re ed as .

Acting like Danny Green or Tiago Splitter wouldn't be useful in another team. Active defenders who can hit their shot when called upon, Lets just thank the lord we have the Big 3 to make them look 'good'. Fact is, Spurs aren't doing without their role players.

Role players however have came up big when they needed too without our 'stars'. Never once did I say San Antonio could win through-out the season without the Big 3. Nice way of putting words in my mouth, almost as clever as your 're ed' insult.

But sure, anything to hype up the Big 3 at this point of their careers.

[Prime Time]

I do feel if Parker was replaced with Leonard, Spurs would be winning more of these games. Maybe that's because of Kawhi's knack of playing well whenever Tony is out. Averaged nearly 16/7 last season during that stint where Parker was injured, including a 24/13/4 performance.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's easier to replace a high-usage player in the regular season than a group of high-end role players, tbh..

Look at the Clippers without Paul, Bulls without Rose, etc..if you have a good system with solid role players and 1/2 capable shot-creators, it's easy to replace a Parker or Paul during the season..

You'll need those stars in the playoffs when defenses lock down, but it's easy to replace them during the regular season, as the Spurs have shown many times..

[Kidd K]

It would be nice if Baynes added some rim protection, considering he's a 7-foot "bruiser", tbh..

Limited sample size, but 53% against him at the rim is pretty terrible, so far..

I'm always an advocate of giving players a chance to earn a spot, though, and Ayres certainly hasn't done anything to warrant a permanent spot in the rotation..

That's because he's almost always out of position on help defense. He's like the anti-Ibaka

[cd021]

You said you would have liked to see better than 2 boards. And you are cherry picking bad stats. I can cherry pick good stats as his per36 numbers for points assists and rebounds are excellent. but it the per36 fouls look bad so fixate on those.

And ffs I wish people would stop using fouls as the standard by which all players should be judged. As if that is not something all aggressive players go through when they are learning the league or something that is commonly improved upon with simple experience. Nevermind that he has clearly improved in that regard. The Houston game was an aberration of his recent norm.

What stat did I over look?

Per 36

12.8 ppg (10th on team)

2.4 assists (10th on team)

2.5 turnovers (5th on team)

besides his rebounding (which I said was great) he hasn't shown anything that stands out in advanced stats or even the eye test.

I don't usually use fouls as a "standard" but its the 2nd highest foul rate on the team (Behind Ayers). Its one thing if he were swatting shots like Mutombo but he just isn't (8th on team in blocks rate, behind Boris Diaw) he also has a negative assist to turnover ratio 2.4/2.5.

If his job is be a presence in the paint and crass the glass, then he is only doing one very well. His 104 D-rating is 8th on the team. Tied with Patty Mills, the difference is Mills has a O-rating of 114 (+10) while Baynes is at 98 (-6)


Unless you have more, i'd prefer not to speak about Baynes again.

[DMC]

Acting like Danny Green or Tiago Splitter wouldn't be useful in another team. Active defenders who can hit their shot when called upon, Lets just thank the lord we have the Big 3 to make them look 'good'. Fact is, Spurs aren't doing without their role players.

Danny was let go how many times? No team does without role players. Oddly the same big 3 won 3 rings with different role players each time. I guess all the role players SA had during that time were superstars that were underutilized.

Role players however have came up big when they needed too without our 'stars'. Never once did I say San Antonio could win through-out the season without the Big 3. Nice way of putting words in my mouth, almost as clever as your 're ed' insult.

Role players are just role players. Most of those in SA wouldn't see much playing time in other systems. How's Blair doing in Dallas? How about Gary up in Milwaukee? George Hill is a starting PG but he's the least valuable starter and could easily be replaced by any PG with decent handles. Why wasn't Patty Mills playing for a different team after he was released from Portland? Why was Marco so cheap? Why isn't Matt Bonner being wooed to another franchise? Kawhi in LA would be basically a dunker, probably never developed a 3pt shot.

It's about the big 3 and really it's about the big 1 and that's Tim Duncan. Your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious takes are run of-the mill for fans with superficial understanding of the game.

But sure, anything to hype up the Big 3 at this point of their careers.

That's not my M.O. and anyone here can attest to that.

[DMC]

I do feel if Parker was replaced with Leonard, Spurs would be winning more of these games. Maybe that's because of Kawhi's knack of playing well whenever Tony is out. Averaged nearly 16/7 last season during that stint where Parker was injured, including a 24/13/4 performance.

OK now I'm convinced you're just a troll. You lay it on too thick to be any good at it though. Too much too soon.

[TheGoldStandard]

I do feel if Parker was replaced with Leonard, Spurs would be winning more of these games. Maybe that's because of Kawhi's knack of playing well whenever Tony is out. Averaged nearly 16/7 last season during that stint where Parker was injured, including a 24/13/4 performance.

[ElNono]

thanks

[wildchild]

Kawhi in LA would be basically a dunker, probably never developed a 3pt shot.

Dunk after run a pick and roll? Alley-oop? Only fast-break? Basically a dunker like...Blake Griffin?
Just kidding.
Anyway, Clippers/Lakers haven't a top perimeter defender right now, Leonard could be a valuable acquisition.

So a dunker guy -who isn't 3's shooter and his team forcing him to be one, when he gets more comfortable playing in low post/mid-range shooter- and great defensive player, maybe one of best five SF, 22 years old in his third in the league?
16-8 guy in LA this season?

Well, LA would be the right fit for the kid. Some guys can't easily recognize the potential of young players, maybe Leonard would have better luck with other team.

After all, he's a SoCal boy...

[DMC]

Dunk after run a pick and roll? Alley-oop? Only fast-break? Basically a dunker like...Blake Griffin?
Just kidding.
Anyway, Clippers/Lakers haven't a top perimeter defender right now, Leonard could be a valuable acquisition.

So a dunker guy -who isn't 3's shooter and his team forcing him to be one, when he gets more comfortable playing in low post/mid-range shooter- and great defensive player, maybe one of best five SF, 22 years old in his third in the league?
16-8 guy in LA this season?

Well, LA would be the right fit for the kid. Some guys can't easily recognize the potential of young players, maybe Leonard would have better luck with other team.

After all, he's a SoCal boy...

You look at a kid who's being developed by a master and you try to artificially place that kid in another, far worse system without considering he probably doesn't develop in the same way, and might not even see much playing time. Mike D doesn't coach defense, so Leonard probably doesn't get a chance to play (not talking about the Clippers here).

Just imagine Paul George went to LA instead of Indy and sat the bench most of the time. He's still a role guy, pretty much. It's about their situations as much as it is about them until they are established.

Leonard doesn't have great handles but does have huge hands. He can maneuver with the ball and avoid turning it over UNTIL he puts it on the floor. He's good on the break but not great in traffic. He's a decent shooter but not a confident one. These are things that take time to develop, if they ever do.

[RD2191]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kawhi left to a Cali team. He said he was a big Lakers fan growing up.

[Prime Time]

Danny was let go how many times? No team does without role players. Oddly the same big 3 won 3 rings with different role players each time. I guess all the role players SA had during that time were superstars that were underutilized.

Role players are just role players. Most of those in SA wouldn't see much playing time in other systems. How's Blair doing in Dallas? How about Gary up in Milwaukee? George Hill is a starting PG but he's the least valuable starter and could easily be replaced by any PG with decent handles. Why wasn't Patty Mills playing for a different team after he was released from Portland? Why was Marco so cheap? Why isn't Matt Bonner being wooed to another franchise? Kawhi in LA would be basically a dunker, probably never developed a 3pt shot.

It's about the big 3 and really it's about the big 1 and that's Tim Duncan. Your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious takes are run of-the mill for fans with superficial understanding of the game.


That's not my M.O. and anyone here can attest to that.

Again with going off-topic. I never said anything about the Big 3 in their prime, those guys were straight-out legends. Blair is doing just fine in Dallas, not sure what the argument is there. Improved in every category.. so

Danny Green's open threes I will admit came from SA's current system, but I fail to see how the Big 3 made his defense any better. Not just anyone can contain Curry.

Neal always sucked. Spurs system or not, He was just a chucker.

Mills was always an explosion of offense. He led the entire Basketball Olympics in scoring, was that the Big 3 as well? As for this season, Mills has worked his ass off to thin down and improve his touch. The contested shots he takes has nothing to do with the Big 3. All you're proving is Spurs are good at finding hidden talent, not that they make scrubs into good players.

Bonner? Same argument as Gary, they both struggle here. The thing about BonBon is he can't do anything outside of shooting threes, so this a classic case of it going both ways - System makes Bonner better, Bonner makes system better... until the post-season of course.

"Kawhi in LA would be a dunker." What? Kawhi's work ethic thrives harder than any other player on the Spurs. Last season, in his two best scoring games (vs. CLE, @ CHI) he only made ONE three. In the last 2 games of the finals, Leonard only made a total of TWO threes. That's right, he averaged 20/13/2 steals .... while shooting .286% from downtown. Leonard would be near All-Star level on any struggling team, if anything San Antonio's system is holding him back. Don't even try to make him sound bad.

Lol I can't believe I'm actually having this discussion. Seriously, just a couple of years ago Spurs were stuck with the likes of Udoka, Bogans, Thomas, Mason, Jefferson, etc. And now you want to act like Spurs have nothing but scrubs for Role Players?? And you say I'm the troll...

[Prime Time]

Alright confession time, due to a busy schedule the only games I've seen as of late were vs. POR, @ATL, and @MIA. I had no idea Parker was dropping 17/20/37 in those other games I missed. I actually take back that particular comment.

[wildchild]

Leonard doesn't have great handles but does have huge hands. He can maneuver with the ball and avoid turning it over UNTIL he puts it on the floor. He's good on the break but not great in traffic. He's a decent shooter but not a confident one. These are things that take time to develop, if they ever do.

Agree with you, good development takes time, Leonard hasn't playtime here, not at least like a young player needs to develop.

About Mike, he loves athletic players and Kawhi is a better option than Nick Young now. Who knows...