Creationism vs Evolution live debate tonight

[Chinook]

I guess I should have said before, I'm with Hawking too that it's silly to guess what happened before the universe started, so I'm skipping on ahead to the next phase in this discussion which is usually abiogenesis.

But I'm assuming that your claims that burden of "disproof" still falls on the atheist in regards to abiogenesis, correct?

Nope. I believe in abiogenesis as much as an atheist. I don't see a reason to separate life from matter.

[mouse]

The truth is "Science" needs to get out of the "Religion" part of our life. they already proved design.

[Chinook]

We also have to define "life" in terms that have clear boundaries.

True. There's a lot of gray area there.

[mouse]

I found an old link copy it .

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/arch...06902-p-2.html

[Chinook]

It's not that abiogenesis is more obvious than divine intervention, but that it doesn't require the creation of a magical bridge. The fact that all known life is composed of matter and energy supports abiogenesis more than divine creation. If we could not find anything composed of the material that we are composed of except in us, then divine intervention would be a bit more feasible though still more of a leap that abiogenesis. However all things are matter and energy. There's no evidence that it was created, none. There's no evidence that an intelligence source initiated the creation of the universe. There's no reason to assume it did. Ignorance coupled with supers ion fuels the creation of deities. There's much more evidence to suggest man created god than that god created man.

I'm a deist, so I agree that people made up everything attributed to god. As I said to Blake, I believe in abiogenesis and the general atheistic origin story. I believe religion was created as a way to answer questions and as a moral code. In both ways, it's mostly outdated.

[mouse]

Science has found the "code inside the DNA" of the smallest molecule ever seen under a microscope and only someone with a College degree can do that so the Evolutionist know the Universe is a blueprint of life that may have "Evolved"

[mouse]

Now we have Minos that grow feet and birds that grow beaks. "Evolution" does take place but where does it end?

[mouse]

There is a difference in a person or an animal to "adapt" or "Evolve" to their surroundings it's totally different to say that bird or fish was you.

now you get it?

[mouse]

The bull you learn.

[DMC]

I'm a deist, so I agree that people made up everything attributed to god. As I said to Blake, I believe in abiogenesis and the general atheistic origin story. I believe religion was created as a way to answer questions and as a moral code. In both ways, it's mostly outdated.

I'd go a step further and say people made up god as an explanation for the mysterious things in their world. From the sun moving across the sky, to the sea gods who got angry and caused the storms, to famines caused by angry gods. Gods were credited with outcomes of wars, with births and everything else. Gods were an all encompassing part of people's lives. They lived in fear of gods. As time has passed, men have not gotten closer to these gods, but further away. This world is moving toward atheism, not toward theism. I think humankind's ability to imagine has led them down this road. A sense of the numinous is prevalent in mankind, perhaps as a survival mechanism. a hierarchy much like in the animal kingdom, only we've grown to push other humans below our worship (mostly) and instead imagine a super good human like presence who has an overall plan that's universally solid.

I will give you this though; if a benevolent god created the universe, he has indeed abandoned it.

[DMC]

True. There's a lot of gray area there.

We also have to define "special". Life is special to us. It probably has special cir stances surrounding its origin as well. I don't believe that its supernaturally special however. The fact that we are dependent upon the "dead" environment around us leads me to think we are simply a compilation of matter and energy that's become self aware, and because we are self aware, we have given ourselves an artificial value in terms of existence. Were we wiped from the planet today, and no life existed afterward, the universe would still be. It was before we existed.

[Rogue]

I'd go a step further and say people made up god as an explanation for the mysterious things in their world. From the sun moving across the sky, to the sea gods who got angry and caused the storms, to famines caused by angry gods. Gods were credited with outcomes of wars, with births and everything else. Gods were an all encompassing part of people's lives. They lived in fear of gods. As time has passed, men have not gotten closer to these gods, but further away. This world is moving toward atheism, not toward theism.

I will give you this though; if a benevolent god created the universe, he has indeed abandoned it.

Physicist dropping truth bombs per par. People always tend to resort to "supernatural power" no matter it is god or something else when they confront some natural phenomena that they can hardly explain with the limited knowledge they have. I thought that the time when "God" served as an alternative to science was gone, but the existence of people like Avante has proven me wrong...

[xmas1997]

There are those who postulate that human life has been wiped out at least three or four times already, and yet began again.
Go figure.

[Chinook]

I'd go a step further and say people made up god as an explanation for the mysterious things in their world. From the sun moving across the sky, to the sea gods who got angry and caused the storms, to famines caused by angry gods. Gods were credited with outcomes of wars, with births and everything else. Gods were an all encompassing part of people's lives. They lived in fear of gods. As time has passed, men have not gotten closer to these gods, but further away. This world is moving toward atheism, not toward theism. I think humankind's ability to imagine has led them down this road. A sense of the numinous is prevalent in mankind, perhaps as a survival mechanism. a hierarchy much like in the animal kingdom, only we've grown to push other humans below our worship (mostly) and instead imagine a super good human like presence who has an overall plan that's universally solid.

I will give you this though; if a benevolent god created the universe, he has indeed abandoned it.

Freud argued that the belief in god hindered humans from realizing their potential by making them believe there was a level they could not reach. Marx thought god allowed poor people to accept being mistreated because they felt their curret lives were less important than the afterlife. So I understand that the movement toward atheism has its benefits. Even though I find atheistic blowhards as insufferable as bible-thumpers, I much prefer today's more secular era to the past.

But I don't think believing in god is inherently destructive. I think truly believing you're but a speck against an unfathomable power is a good thing. I think that feel like imaging the embodiment of eternity and infinitely helps keep things in perspective. I think fearing god's wrath can be a good thing so long as it enforces the right morals that promote common good and not the bigoted ones.

I don't think theism in its most visceral sense is going anywhere.

[Chinook]

We also have to define "special". Life is special to us. It probably has special cir stances surrounding its origin as well. I don't believe that its supernaturally special however. The fact that we are dependent upon the "dead" environment around us leads me to think we are simply a compilation of matter and energy that's become self aware, and because we are self aware, we have given ourselves an artificial value in terms of existence. Were we wiped from the planet today, and no life existed afterward, the universe would still be. It was before we existed.

Indeed. I didn't mean to imply supernatural phenomena by saying special.

[Rogue]

The appearance of life is total coincidence. It requires the proper distance to the Sun and also the right size of the planet itself. The chance of life happening is very minimal, seemingly impossible when you look at the earth itself, but not so when you spread your focus over the entire universe which's boundless and infinite. The earth might be the only planet in the solar system where life exists, but there're definitely some other planets similar to ours in the Galaxy, and many more outside of the Galaxy. It's like, the chance of winning lottery is very small for you, but there're still people winning lotteries, and luckily our earth is one of the planets who've won the life lottery.

[DMC]

Freud argued that the belief in god hindered humans from realizing their potential by making them believe there was a level they could not reach. Marx thought god allowed poor people to accept being mistreated because they felt their curret lives were less important than the afterlife. So I understand that the movement toward atheism has its benefits. Even though I find atheistic blowhards as insufferable as bible-thumpers, I much prefer today's more secular era to the past.

I don't weigh the benefits tbh. It's just the natural outcome as we learn more about our surroundings. If there's a benefit, that's a side effect of getting to an equilibrium with reality, I think. Zealots of any ideology are annoying. The root of atheism however is just a blank slate in terms of believing we already know the answers.

But I don't think believing in god is inherently destructive. I think truly believing you're but a speck against an unfathomable power is a good thing. I think that feel like imaging the embodiment of eternity and infinitely helps keep things in perspective. I think fearing god's wrath can be a good thing so long as it enforces the right morals that promote common good and not the bigoted ones.

I think believing in something that's not real isn't a good thing. I think it's delusional. If a person loses weight because they think the food is poisoned when it's clearly not, regardless whether the person needed to lose weight, the person is delusional.

I think a modi of humility would do a lot of people some good, but I don't believe that should be artificially induced through delusion. It says bad things about people in general that we are more civil if we think we are getting rewarded for being that way, or punished for not being that way. It also says bad things that many of us cannot find internal reasons to do the right things in life, and instead need a life trainer, even a make believe one, correcting us and reminding us along the way with a moral compass.

I don't think theism in its most visceral sense is going anywhere.

I think it's been everywhere and it will sooner or later be just a thin resemblance of what it is now. I think many people will alter their beliefs over time to treat all religion like we treat Christmas now.... like it's a pretty idea with no substance because for all intents and purposes, that's what religion is, at least god belief.

[DMC]

Indeed. I didn't mean to imply supernatural phenomena by saying special.

If special is the other side of the biogenesis coin, what else would it be?

[DMC]

There are those who postulate that human life has been wiped out at least three or four times already, and yet began again.
Go figure.

With zero evidence, a postulation is just a fart.

[Chinook]

If special is the other side of the biogenesis coin, what else would it be?

Special just means unique to a certain group in this case. Like if solid matter is heated, it becomes liquid. If matter is put under certain conditions, it becomes living. The fact that it's living is the special state, not necessary that it has the potential to become living. For all we know, all matter may be able to become living under certain cir stances.

[Woo Bum-kon]

I am Agnostic. Sounds like deep down you are as well, tbh.

Are you an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist?

[pgardn]

One really cannot discuss abiogenesis or biogenesis without a working definition of life.

Their are non carbon based crystals that can be thought of as self replicating.
Some of this stuff was getting very philosophical.
Imo definitions of words need to be fully understood and agreed upon otherwise meaningful discussion (the an hesis of Mouse talk) does not take place.

[Proxy]

We also have to define "special". Life is special to us. It probably has special cir stances surrounding its origin as well. I don't believe that its supernaturally special however. The fact that we are dependent upon the "dead" environment around us leads me to think we are simply a compilation of matter and energy that's become self aware, and because we are self aware, we have given ourselves an artificial value in terms of existence. Were we wiped from the planet today, and no life existed afterward, the universe would still be. It was before we existed.

That false sense of self... saw a TED talk a while back where John Searle made a convincing argument to view consciousness as a natural phenomenon, like photosynthesis.

[DMC]

That false sense of self... saw a TED talk a while back where John Searle made a convincing argument to view consciousness as a natural phenomenon, like photosynthesis.

What is?

I'll check out that video, thanks for posting it.

[Proxy]

What is?

referring to the egotistical mindset that prevents many from realizing how indifferent the universe is to our existence in comparison to other forms of life