Mavs: Would Dallas win a le in 2011

[irishock]

This same question was asked on RealGM's general boards and even those proven dumbasses laughed at the OP.

[HarlemHeat37]

Love is criminally underrated on ST, tbh, as I've said many times..he has one of the most poorly built supporting casts in the league, and he plays in a system with a coach that hasn't given a about coaching in a long time IMO..

The differences between Love and 2011 Dirk IMO:

- Experience..obviously..it's rare for a player to dominate an entire run in his first taste of the playoffs..

- Offensive fit with Tyson Chandler..Love spends 40% of his usage in the paint, mostly in the post, which would have hurt the Mavs on the offensive end, tbh..Chandler's defense was obviously his primary strength, but his finishing ability and screen-setting was essential for the Mavs..Dirk didn't spend too much time in the paint, he operated mostly in the mid-post area, his high pick&roll and iso game opened things up for Chandler inside..

- Dirk is a more efficient team scorer..the Mavs were not built around isolation plays, they were built around ball movement, and Nowitzki's jump shot was significantly more efficient than Love's this season, about a 7-8% difference..Love is an efficient scorer, but a lot of his scoring comes in the paint and offensive rebounding, which wouldn't have fit as well with Chandler at the 5..

- Dirk's scoring in the 4th..Nowitzki grades better as a pick&roll scorer and isolation scorer, which aided Dirk in having one of the best 4th quarter runs in playoff history during that year..Love would not be as effective in clutch time, when pick&roll and isolation becomes a necessity, particularly the latter..

- Defense..Nowitzki was a terrible individual defender at that point, but he was a competent team defender with a high basketball IQ, which Love hasn't shown yet..Love isn't as bad of a defender as perceived, though..

[jimbo]

I don't need to think this through ... you simply can't compare a 13 year vet in the prime of his career, who's been thru as many wars as anybody, versus a 6 year guy with zero playoff experience. A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

I'm trying to see what you actually can think through tbh. I mean if you think we're just comparing '11 Dirk and '14 Love here, you already haven't thought enough.

Who cares about appropriate questions? It's just a basketball forum. '08 Garnett isn't as interesting of a question as '14 Love. We know already Garnett is in the same caliber of player as Dirk, a lot of people would say he's better. The Mavs would have had by far the best defense in the league that year with Chandler and Garnett. With Caron Butler in the lineup, you've got a really complete team. Without him you've still got enough shooting to not have to worry about spacing. (still a problem area though, but the Mavs role players killed in in that area in the playoffs anyways) You lose out on Dirk's isoball abilities at the end of the game, but we also don't have Kevin McHale or Scott Brooks as the coach. The game plan shouldn't be "get to the 4th and let Dirk iso it at the end of the game" regardless.

Tbh, a better question is how about a rookie Magic Johnson? He's got as much playoff experience as Kevin Love. He hasn't been through any wars. We know in hindsight he won a championship his rookie year and ended up being clutch (for that year at least.)

[DMC]

Put Kevin Love around that winning core and you don't think he can elevate the Mavs?

Over Lebron? No.

Not a fan of Love but I think he's been unfairly criticized in this forum for failing to carry a ty team. Start with a PG who shoots 30%, a dyslexic SF in Brewer, and a chucking SG that only knows how to play a game one way They're only bright spot it seems is Pek.

Kevin Love is a facade of a decent player. He's smart as , because he knows just when to leave his man for a rebound and he knows he's getting paid for stats, not for wins. The history of that team tells him as much. I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I'm saying his production thus far doesn't show me anything that says he could.

[jimbo]

You said the Mavs were a stacked team b/c they had the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA... oh boy let's ask the mid-decade Knicks how that worked out for em.

That wasn't supposed to be a correlation. I mentioned that the second highest was the Magic...I certainly wasn't implying that they had some kind of stacked roster either. It was supposed to be an example of Cuban's willingness to spend on quality role players vs the T-Wolves'.

I mean what bad contracts did they even have that year anyway? DeShawn Stevenson was the worst @ 4 mil. Caron Butlers would have been worth the 10.5 if he were healthy.

[RsxPiimp]

jimbo honestly is one of the most underrated poster in this board. Real solid takes.

[RsxPiimp]

jimbo honestly is one of the most underrated poster in this board. Real solid takes.

[jimbo]

Love is criminally underrated on ST, tbh, as I've said many times..he has one of the most poorly built supporting casts in the league, and he plays in a system with a coach that hasn't given a about coaching in a long time IMO..

The differences between Love and 2011 Dirk IMO:

- Experience..obviously..it's rare for a player to dominate an entire run in his first taste of the playoffs..

Can't disagree, but I don't think it automatically DQs Kevin Love either.

- Offensive fit with Tyson Chandler..Love spends 40% of his usage in the paint, mostly in the post, which would have hurt the Mavs on the offensive end, tbh..Chandler's defense was obviously his primary strength, but his finishing ability and screen-setting was essential for the Mavs..Dirk didn't spend too much time in the paint, he operated mostly in the mid-post area, his high pick&roll and iso game opened things up for Chandler inside..

It would have to be run like Duncan/Splitter was in 12-13. Love works just fine in the high post w/ Chandler in the low post. Kidd gets all the space to pick and roll with Chandler that he wants. I've been watching some Love/Pekovic for a little bit now and the spacing honestly didn't seem that terrible. The worst part was Pekovic not realizing that Love was trying to post up and he'd sometimes stay in the area doing nothing. Chandler was pretty smart about moving around without the ball or at least good enough about getting out of the way.




I think spacing is only an issue if Carlisle is trying to force Love into those elbow jumpers actually. (With 2011 thinking in mind) He's shooting them just a little worse than Tim did in '13, (.426 vs .433) so it still could be effective...but his numbers don't even touch Dirk's midrange game. As far as Love's scoring being off of putbacks and offensive rebounds, it shouldn't have as much an impact as you'd think. A lot of the time he'd crash the boards after taking a shot to get that putback, so it was off of defenders not blocking him out. If the defender does block him out, I still like my chances with Tyson Chandler versus their center. It worked well enough with Pekovic.

As far as defense, I've always thought that someone like an '11 Chandler would be a good pairing with Love, but I'm not so sure anymore. In 2011 the strategy would have been fine given that Lebron/Durant barely played at the 4 back then. (and you can't just zone up like the Mavs did since both teams have enough shooting/passing to kill it) Splitter was useless because he couldn't overpower anyone on a switch or Lebron straight up, but Chandler might actually be able to take advantage of his size.

- Dirk is a more efficient team scorer..the Mavs were not built around isolation plays, they were built around ball movement, and Nowitzki's jump shot was significantly more efficient than Love's this season, about a 7-8% difference..Love is an efficient scorer, but a lot of his scoring comes in the paint and offensive rebounding, which wouldn't have fit as well with Chandler at the 5..

Just because I thought it was interesting, Dirk and Love actually take around the same percentage of long range shots. Love is just all in on the new school thinking where a 3 is better than a long 2. Dirk shot 34.4% of his shots over 16 ft and 14.2% from 3. Love is shooting 13.6% over 16 ft and 34.2% from 3.

It's like you said though, Dirk's shooting was more efficient even when accounting for Love's better shot selection. Dirk's eFG was still 1.7% higher.

- Dirk's scoring in the 4th..Nowitzki grades better as a pick&roll scorer and isolation scorer, which aided Dirk in having one of the best 4th quarter runs in playoff history during that year..Love would not be as effective in clutch time, when pick&roll and isolation becomes a necessity, particularly the latter..

I wouldn't be worried about the pick and roll scoring. Chandler was a good pick and roll scorer and distributor. He could pick up the slack in that area.

Iso wouldn't be a problem if Kevin Love would actually pass out of a double team in the post. He's got some great passing ability, he just doesn't use it enough. I'm not sure if it's vision or what, but that would hurt him especially on a team like the 2011 Mavs where other scorers would need to step up for the lack of a dominant scorer like Dirk. Not to say that Dirk was a great passer or anything, but if you're gonna have a guy shoot over a double team--you'd rather it be Dirk than Love. I think this would end up being the killer with Love on the Mavs.

It's weird saying this for a big man who's gotten a triple double and has gotten close to a few more, but from what I've watched his assists are more like to cutting wings, guys streaking down the court, or entry passes to big men. It's not your typical double team in the post -> kick out to three point shooter. I wonder how much of that is personnel/bad spacing/called plays by the Timberwolves though. I know at least earlier in the year their spacing in the perimeter looked terrible. It's been better lately.

- Defense..Nowitzki was a terrible individual defender at that point, but he was a competent team defender with a high basketball IQ, which Love hasn't shown yet..Love isn't as bad of a defender as perceived, though..

He could do his part in the zone vs 2011 teams. It's the modern NBA that would worry me with him.

[baseline bum]

A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

Don't see it even with an '04 Garnett.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

IDK, if love can shoot 40% from the field and 35% from 3 point land than.....maybe

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't need to think this through ... you simply can't compare a 13 year vet in the prime of his career, who's been thru as many wars as anybody, versus a 6 year guy with zero playoff experience. A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

Experience goes a long way, but a 6 year player surrounded by a group of players that fits so well in a system is overlooked in this scenario.

Dirk was quite good in 2011, but he wasn't this unstoppable scoring machine for the entire post season. I remember him struggling against the Heat.

Love may not be able to lead that Mavs team to a le but it isn't too far fetch to think he could.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I'm saying his production thus far doesn't show me anything that says he could.

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best

[Rogue]

Love is a stat-oriented player so it's really no surprise his stats look more impressive than his actual impact on the team. Love would be a perfect #2 but it's been proven a million times that he's the wrong choice to make a leader imho.

[DeadlyDynasty]

No, for many of the reasons already outlined here.

That being said, going forward you have to take Spurfan's opinion of Kevin Love with a grain of salt, because they already know he'll be a Laker by 2015-16 and are prepping for that. It was the same treatment Dwight Howard got when it was a foregone conclusion he was coming to LA (and for the year he was here). After he left Spurfan gave him a key to the city and are pretty much down to let him their wives now. As a case study, it's fascinating how one team can so completely dominate the psyche of another team's fanbase. I might submit an article to the NE Journal of Medicine about it if I get the time.

[jimbo]

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...

[Clipper Nation]

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best

You left out the most important stat of all: 28-29

[RsxPiimp]

You left out the most important stat of all: 28-29

Fwiw,Team record just like winning a le is NOT an individual accomplishment.

[Clipper Nation]

Fwiw,Team record just like winning a le is NOT an individual accomplishment.

It's a team accomplishment, yes, but if Love was anywhere near as good as his numbers and stans hype him up to be, they wouldn't be under .500....

[DMC]

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...

You do realize that 2011 was the year that Kevin Love had his highest rebounding average in his career, right? I mean, you do have the ability to make that connection... right? Surely your bag opinion is flexible enough to not just look at how he played this season to decide whether or not the got plays defense, right? That his rebounding numbers are overblown because he cheats off his man on defense, right?

[jimbo]

It's a team accomplishment, yes, but if Love was anywhere near as good as his numbers and stans hype him up to be, they wouldn't be under .500....

A prime Kobe was barely over .500. In fact, the 05-06 Lakers through 57 games were 29-28. The Timberwolves are currently 28-29. It's definitely possible for good players to be on absolutely ty teams

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...

Also, statistically, the Wolves are better with Love on the court, both on offense and defense

[StrengthAndHonor]

You do realize that 2011 was the year that Kevin Love had his highest rebounding average in his career, right? I mean, you do have the ability to make that connection... right? Surely your bag opinion is flexible enough to not just look at how he played this season to decide whether or not the got plays defense, right? That his rebounding numbers are overblown because he cheats off his man on defense, right?

Again, numbers do not support your claim. Also, Love posted 11.4 win shares in 2010-11 and another 10 during the following season.

[DMC]

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best

^fan of a team that doesn't play defense

[DMC]

Again, numbers do not support your claim. Also, Love posted 11.4 win shares in 2010-11 and another 10 during the following season.

lol Kevin Love slurping up in this thread

[DMC]

Also, statistically, the Wolves are better with Love on the court, both on offense and defense

So? The Wolves suck. Of course they are better with him on the court. Just because he's the best player on that team doesn't mean he's 2011 Dirk, idiot.