NBA: Inside The NBA Article: Tim Duncan is a great player, but NOT top 10 of all-time

[Cry Havoc]

Didn't see that one coming

He's a great player. I recognize greatness.

Tlong actually has good takes when he's not being a homer for the Blazers (which I begrudge him the right as long as he doesn't mind me not taking his team seriously )

[midnightpulp]

Kool posts an old as article (that's terrible. The author reveals his stupidity when he says he would take Bob Cousy over Duncan) and triggers a discussion we've had a million times?

This "debate" should be dead and buried.

There's no logical argument that can be backed by statistics (both traditional and advanced) that put Kobe over Duncan.

I don't know why this is even still a debate? Kobe is better compared to players like Dirk and Jerry West.

[ambchang]

I said Tim was greater until 2007 ... but for me it was close (relative).
The rings and individual play since 2008 gave Kobe a distinct but still relatively slight edge.
The past two years Duncan turned back the clock so he narrowed the gap.
It being so close you know I go to rings.
Just my opinion and I wont go much deeper until they both call it quits.

Three years erased the work of the previous 10, you are making less and less sense.

But one new angle I will throw in ...is Pop.

This just in, Phil Jackson sucks. I mean, what are you trying to say here? Duncan had a great coach and Kobe didn't? Guess what Kobe did without Phil Jackson? Missed the playoffs, a huge underachieving team last year, had a mutiny against Potato Head. Really, do you want to go into the coaching angle?

In no way am I saying this to diminish Tim, who is my GOAT PF and for me clearly better than Shaq.

I am not sure, both about equal to me, with Duncan having the slight advantage because of defense and versatility.

I dont see how you can argue they are even but whatever ... you like to factor in some took them out of the doldrums bull , when David did the same for the Spurs.
Just like with David Shaq could not ring without a better coach (PJ/Pop) or a a young HOF star to push them over the top (Kobe/duncan). Heck it took Wade acting MJ with shady calls for Shaq to get to 4.

Puleaze, Robinson in 99 was Kobe in 00, 01 and 02, Duncan was Shaq, please don't get the role

Pop has proven with all the injuries he can still win. The man does not get enough credit. Sure he had Tim, but Duncan is lucky to have him as well. Take away Tony, KL, Tiago or Even Duncan ... it doesnt matter they still win.

It's the NBA version of Brady and Belicheck. It takes nothing away from either man ...but no way could Duncan have the same success at 37 under another coach.

Pop pissed a championship away because of 6 seconds without Duncan.

I also doubt MJ/Kobe/Shaq could harness what they have without Phil.

Im sure MJ, Kobe, tim shaq still ring ...but all 4 have less jewelry without their HOF mentors tbh ...

Just something that gets lost in the debates ...Maybe I am getting old but great coaching I appreciate it more and more. And without it Shaq would be David Robinson tbh ...

Of course coaching comes into play, but bringing up Pop as a "new angle" in a Duncan vs. Kobe debate without acknowledging the greatness of Phil Jackson is head-scratching to say the least.

[ambchang]

geez dude stop being a pacifist already...it was never close...you're trying to sit here and tow the line that Duncan was better than Shaq and Kobe up until 2007 and now Kobe barely edges him out and only because of rings...you're gotdam bat crazy like all these other re ed ass Spur fans... Duncan better than Shaq and Kobe you might as well ing say it already..this is insane.....Kobe shat on those SPurs teams even when he didn't have no help....

When Kobe didn't have no help, he missed the playoffs and got kicked out by the Nash suns in the first round, twice. So not sure how he could have shat on the Spurs.

name for me Duncan's worst team he had to lead compared to Kobe's....

LOL, and what did Kobe did with his "worst teams" of Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and two time championship winning coach? Duncan's worst team, he led them to a championship in 03.

Let's compare the 2nd and 3rd best players of the 03 Spurs and the 05 Lakers.

Lamar Odom - 15.2 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.7 ast
David Robinson - 8.5ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1 ast

Caron Butler - 15.5/5.8/1.9
Stephen Jackson - 11.8/3.6/2.3

What about the fourth best?

Chucky Atkins - 13.6/2.4/4.4
Tony Parker - 15.5/2.6/5/3

how many head coaches has Duncan played for vs Kobe....

How did Kobe do without Phil Jackson again?

how many ball dominant players have Duncan had to play with compared to Kobe...

Kobe had to play with himself, so who else was ball dominant? If Duncan played with a teammate like Shaq who can score 30ppg and shoot 60% from the floor every game, then score 40ppg in the Finals, then I am sure Duncan would have done a lot better.

man yall s are somking so other ...on the cool...that nikka ain't no where close to Kobe and peer acknowledgement says it all....you're a so called Laker fan..grow a pair and stop being scared to speak the truth to these Ho's you could learn a thing or two from Kool about how to keep it real tbh

Good that you just ignored my post, now go declare some internet victory.

[Killakobe81]

Three years erased the work of the previous 10, you are making less and less sense.



This just in, Phil Jackson sucks. I mean, what are you trying to say here? Duncan had a great coach and Kobe didn't? Guess what Kobe did without Phil Jackson? Missed the playoffs, a huge underachieving team last year, had a mutiny against Potato Head. Really, do you want to go into the coaching angle?

I am not sure, both about equal to me, with Duncan having the slight advantage because of defense and versatility.



Puleaze, Robinson in 99 was Kobe in 00, 01 and 02, Duncan was Shaq, please don't get the role



Pop pissed a championship away because of 6 seconds without Duncan.



Of course coaching comes into play, but bringing up Pop as a "new angle" in a Duncan vs. Kobe debate without acknowledging the greatness of Phil Jackson is head-scratching to say the least.

So much fail ...did you actually READ what I said? I said Pop does not get enough credit and in no way am I diminishing Timmy. I will bump and high light cuz too lazy to multi-quote.

[Killakobe81]

I said Tim was greater until 2007 ... but for me it was close (relative).
The rings and individual play since 2008 gave Kobe a distinct but still relatively slight edge.
The past two years Duncan turned back the clock so he narrowed the gap.
It being so close you know I go to rings.
Just my opinion and I wont go much deeper until they both call it quits.

But one new angle I will throw in ...is Pop.
In no way am I saying this to diminish Tim, who is my GOAT PF and for me clearly better than Shaq.
I dont see how you can argue they are even but whatever ... you like to factor in some took them out of the doldrums bull , when David did the same for the Spurs.
Just like with David Shaq could not ring without a better coach (PJ/Pop) or a a young HOF star to push them over the top (Kobe/duncan). Heck it took Wade acting MJ with shady calls for Shaq to get to 4.

Pop has proven with all the injuries he can still win. The man does not get enough credit. Sure he had Tim, but Duncan is lucky to have him as well. Take away Tony, KL, Tiago or Even Duncan ... it doesnt matter they still win.

It's the NBA version of Brady and Belicheck. It takes nothing away from either man ...but no way could Duncan have the same success at 37 under another coach.
I also doubt MJ/Kobe/Shaq could harness what they have without Phil.

Im sure MJ, Kobe, tim shaq still ring ...but all 4 have less jewelry without their HOF mentors tbh ...

Just something that gets lost in the debates ...Maybe I am getting old but great coaching I appreciate it more and more. And without it Shaq would be David Robinson tbh ...

Damn, Amb hate really blinds you.

1. what part of I felt there were close up til 2007 but Duncan had the edge do you not get? I felt 2008-2012 It was Kobe clearly and that moved him slightly ahead (since they were close) and now duncan has had a resurgence, and narrowed the gap again. In the end that leaves them close Imho. If you dont agree you are en led, but dont act like what I said was not pretty straight forward you just ing disagree, move on.

2. the Pop angle is new "on my side" (at least I dont recall making a big deal about it) ... We already have been through rings, stats, metrics, leadership impacts etc. I wont go back down that road until they retire, because it's boring. But since we first started this "dance" ...I think my appreciation for Pop has grown. I already thought extremely high of Duncan and Pop, but nothing Timmy has done even his resurgence has surprised me, because I called at least one more Finals run for Duncan a few years back, when folks thought he was done. But POP is showing he is every bit PJ's equal or it's closer than I thought initially (much like Kobe/Duncan). For example, PJ (and Pippen) gets soo much credit for the excellent record the Bulls maintained during MJ's ban/baseball career. But look at what Pop has done the past two years with all of the Spurs injuries. COTY this season, no doubt about it. Best coach in the game, unquestioned.

Yes, Pop screwed up 6 ...but the players had their hands in it too including Duncan to a lessor extent.

But again, did you ACTUALLY read my statement?! I included PJ's greatness saying that even MJ owed Phil. Dense.

3. I compared Duncan/Pop to Brady/Bill B not sure how that is a insult or how you cannot see the respect I have for both men. Just because your petty bias does not allow you to pay respect to Kobe that's on you. You really are just a more eloquent version of Kool, (on this subject) with stats as your weapon of choice instead of you tube. Kobe and Duncan are closer than either of you will admit and I really should not even be in this thread tbh, I should let you both wage your bias war without bringing a more balanced view to the table.

[Old School 44]

Kobe is better than Timmy, but It's not be as much by what Kool thinks.
And if for some reason you believe Tim is greater than Kobe it isnt as far as Kobe haters would have you believe either.
I think it is pretty close with Kobe having teh greater career and post season success after 2008 before the last two years.
SO i thought Kobe had pulled away quite a bit but when you factor that last two seasons Duncan has made it close again.
I wont argue my case here since Kool is just trolling yall (though i know he believes this)

Duncan makes my top 10 because I never saw Wilt or Pe and tbh I missed most of Moses Prime as well ..

In some order:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Lebron
5. Bird
6. Isiah
7. Tim
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Moses

I dont do players prior to 1980 ... that 10th spot is tough with Moses, KG and Dirk all in consideration tbh

Assuming 1. MJ is Jordan...wow, no Magic?

[ambchang]

So much fail ...did you actually READ what I said? I said Pop does not get enough credit and in no way am I diminishing Timmy. I will bump and high light cuz too lazy to multi-quote.

So why did you bring a "new angle". What does the presence of Pop bring to the debate?

Damn, Amb hate really blinds you.

1. what part of I felt there were close up til 2007 but Duncan had the edge do you not get? I felt 2008-2012 It was Kobe clearly and that moved him slightly ahead (since they were close) and now duncan has had a resurgence, and narrowed the gap again. In the end that leaves them close Imho. If you dont agree you are en led, but dont act like what I said was not pretty straight forward you just ing disagree, move on.

It isn't straight forward

Kobe's prime was prior to 2008, his best work was as a side kick to Shaq from 1999 to 2003, and his most dominant was 2005 to 2007. Duncan already had him beat at his best, and yet some how Kobe made up for it because of Duncan's down years? it makes zero sense.

2. the Pop angle is new "on my side" (at least I dont recall making a big deal about it) ... We already have been through rings, stats, metrics, leadership impacts etc. I wont go back down that road until they retire, because it's boring. But since we first started this "dance" ...I think my appreciation for Pop has grown. I already thought extremely high of Duncan and Pop, but nothing Timmy has done even his resurgence has surprised me, because I called at least one more Finals run for Duncan a few years back, when folks thought he was done. But POP is showing he is every bit PJ's equal or it's closer than I thought initially (much like Kobe/Duncan). For example, PJ (and Pippen) gets soo much credit for the excellent record the Bulls maintained during MJ's ban/baseball career. But look at what Pop has done the past two years with all of the Spurs injuries. COTY this season, no doubt about it. Best coach in the game, unquestioned.

Yes, Pop screwed up 6 ...but the players had their hands in it too including Duncan to a lessor extent.

But again, did you ACTUALLY read my statement?! I included PJ's greatness saying that even MJ owed Phil. Dense.

Of course I read it, so after a whole bunch of stuff, you basically said Pop and Phil are equal, and they negated each other. We already know this. Pop has always been Phil's equal, and I could argue better (based on his ability to build teams). Only Bulls and Laker fans disagree.

3. I compared Duncan/Pop to Brady/Bill B not sure how that is a insult or how you cannot see the respect I have for both men. Just because your petty bias does not allow you to pay respect to Kobe that's on you. You really are just a more eloquent version of Kool, (on this subject) with stats as your weapon of choice instead of you tube. Kobe and Duncan are closer than either of you will admit and I really should not even be in this thread tbh, I should let you both wage your bias war without bringing a more balanced view to the table.

Not saying it was an insult, it was just that it didn't bring anything new. What is that new angle to the debate? I am really having trouble grasping what you are trying to say. So Duncan as an individual accomplished more than Kobe since 2007, his end of prime wasn't as good as Kobe's end of prime, and they both had great coaches .... how did that conclude into Kobe > Duncan?

[cd98]

LOL person admitting that he never really watched Duncan play, and then said he isn't in the top ten greatest, or maybe even top 20. Shows his ignorance.

[cd98]

Duncan is a sexual, 21. It's as simple & complex as that.

If Duncan was gay, then all Sports Illustrated sportswriters would have him top 5, regardless of how his career numbers match up.

[Koolaid_Man]

Diversion again.



LOL, Laker fan logic, missing the playoffs and getting kicked out out of the first round twice is better than being swept in the finals. LOL. Missing the playoffs in his absolute prime and blaming bad teammates when he had Rudy T as a coach, Caron Butler and Lamar Odom as teammates.

LOL, scoring more points = better stats.



I feel sorry for you friends and relatives.




Sean Elliott (learn to spell) has been with the Spurs since his rookie year in 1989, except a couple of forgettable Detroit years. In fact, he didn't even play any significant role since 1999. If you concede Elliott can be an effective defender of Kobe after Elliott's kidney transplant, you are basically telling me that Kobe sucked.

Then Antonio Daniels ... he was a defensive specialist? You saw him on any All-D teams? What kind of defensive specialist was that? He also gave up two inches and several pounds to Kobe.

Bowen was the only one the Spurs hired, and guess what, Bowen did his job ONE ON ONE against Kobe. I mean, you see any teams effectively contain Duncan or Shaq 1-1 during their primes? , they couldn't even do it against Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Thomas, or any other top 15-20 players, and guess what, they did it with Kobe! Really amazing.

BTW, let's see how Kobe torches the Spurs EVERY year. All playoff series stats.

99 - 21.3 ppg on 44.7% shooting. Compared to 19.9 on 46.5% in regular season. Wow, Kobe sure showed the Spurs.
01 - 33.3 ppg on 51.4% shooting. This is the ONLY year Kobe went off with any decent defense because the entire Spurs team was stopping Shaq, and Kobe had to score against defensive juggernauts like Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter. Shaq and Duncan made their mark vs. 4 time DPoY like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, Kobe did it against Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels.
02 - 26.2 ppg on 45.5% shooting vs. 25.2 on 46.9% in regular season while being single teamed by Bowen.
03 - 32.3 ppg on 43.4% shooting. Pretty much the first year he shot the Lakers out of the playoffs because he refused to feed Shaq, who was shooting 55.9% from the field.
04 - 26.3 on 46.2% and heavy minutes.
08 - 29.2 on 53.3% shooting. Tail end of the Spurs era.

Kobe is 5-1 head to head play-offs vs the Spurs and 5-2 including last year when he didn't play...except for asterisk 99 half a season le...there's never been a time when the Spurs beat Kobe and went on to win a le...Kobe torched the Spurs made them es live in perpetual fear...Shaq was easy to predict and contain to a certain extent...but Kobe was the one they had to game plan for because he was unstoppable...and don't for get that weak ass Derek Anderson yall also hired to help stop Kobe...Kobe shat on all your guys....and ironically the last time you losers tried to defend a bull ass non back to back le was in 2008 and guess what happened to yall...Duncan is a 2 time loser...last time he tried to defend his le he lost to Kobe..last time he was in the finals he collapsed against Bron....

Kobe also had at points in time these losers as his starting teammates....


Tony Bobbit
Tierre Brown
Devean George
Jumaine Jones
Medvedenko
Chris Mihm...

Duncan had it good by comparison

[spurraider21]

Let's compare the 2nd and 3rd best players of the 03 Spurs and the 05 Lakers.

Lamar Odom - 15.2 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.7 ast
David Robinson - 8.5ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1 ast

Caron Butler - 15.5/5.8/1.9
Stephen Jackson - 11.8/3.6/2.3

What about the fourth best?

Chucky Atkins - 13.6/2.4/4.4
Tony Parker - 15.5/2.6/5/3


Kobe had to play with himself, so who else was ball dominant? If Duncan played with a teammate like Shaq who can score 30ppg and shoot 60% from the floor every game, then score 40ppg in the Finals, then I am sure Duncan would have done a lot better.

rekt

[Koolaid_Man]

rekt

all one has to do is look at what other teammates Tammy had around him...and lol...@ Comparing D-Rob to Odom... 6 has far reaching anal fissure type implications

[spurraider21]

all one has to do is look at what other teammates Tammy had around him...and lol...@ Comparing D-Rob to Odom... 6 has far reaching anal fissure type implications

comparing 03, robinson on literally his last legs to odom... i think is pretty fair

[RsxPiimp]

Kobe is 5-1 head to head play-offs vs the Spurs and 5-2 including last year when he didn't play...except for asterisk 99 half a season le...there's never been a time when the Spurs beat Kobe and went on to win a le...Kobe torched the Spurs made them es live in perpetual fear...Shaq was easy to predict and contain to a certain extent...but Kobe was the one they had to game plan for because he was unstoppable...and don't for get that weak ass Derek Anderson yall also hired to help stop Kobe...Kobe shat on all your guys....and ironically the last time you losers tried to defend a bull ass non back to back le was in 2008 and guess what happened to yall...Duncan is a 2 time loser...last time he tried to defend his le he lost to Kobe..last time he was in the finals he collapsed against Bron....

Kobe also had at points in time these losers as his starting teammates....


Tony Bobbit
Tierre Brown
Devean George
Jumaine Jones
Medvedenko
Chris Mihm...

Duncan had it good by comparison

Kool dropping nukes.

[ambchang]

Kobe is 5-1 head to head play-offs vs the Spurs and 5-2 including last year when he didn't play...except for asterisk 99 half a season le...

1) Why was 99 not counted? It was a series, should count as such.
2) So what? Kobe is 1-2 vs. the Nash Suns, is Nash better than Kobe?
3) Kobe was on better teams and accomplished less, great for him.
4) Kobe is 0-2 vs. the Stockton Jazz. Stockton > Kobe.

there's never been a time when the Spurs beat Kobe and went on to win a le...

1999 and 2003 never happened?
Not Duncan's problem when Kobe would rather miss the playoffs and got kicked in the nuts by Nsh to avoid a walloping by Duncan and the Spurs in 05 and 07.

Kobe torched the Spurs made them es live in perpetual fear...

, defended 1-1 throughout his career vs. the Spurs.

Shaq was easy to predict and contain to a certain extent...but Kobe was the one they had to game plan for because he was unstoppable...and don't for get that weak ass Derek Anderson yall also hired to help stop Kobe...Kobe shat on all your guys....

Shaq was easy to contain? He was uncontainable, that's the problem. Not only the Spurs, but the entire league was game-planning against Shaq for three straight years with no success. The only guy who had success stopping Shaq was Kobe, by ballhogging and shooting the Lakers out of the Finals in 04.

scoring against Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels being the highlight of his career.

and ironically the last time you losers tried to defend a bull ass non back to back le was in 2008 and guess what happened to yall...Duncan is a 2 time loser...last time he tried to defend his le he lost to Kobe..last time he was in the finals he collapsed against Bron....

FYI, Kobe failed to defend "his" le twice, and last time Kobe was in the playoffs, he choked on his turnovers.

Kobe also had at points in time these losers as his starting teammates....


Tony Bobbit
Tierre Brown
Devean George
Jumaine Jones
Medvedenko
Chris Mihm...

Duncan had it good by comparison

Duncan had Steve Smith, Rose and Willis started for him in his CHAMPIONSHIP year.
He had Elliott with one kidney, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie as his starters in another CHAMPIONSHIP year.

He also had Udoka, Jefferson, Keith Bogans, Dejuan Blair, Rasho, Nazr, Roger Mason starting next to him in other points in his career.

, acting like Duncan had an allstar cast compared to Kobe, when Duncan NEVER had a team mate as good as Shaq (or even remotely as good), and his best 2nd banana wasn't even as good as MVPau in his prime. Then you have guys like Odom, Bynum, Malone, Payton, and Dwight.

[djohn2oo8]

1) Why was 99 not counted? It was a series, should count as such.
2) So what? Kobe is 1-2 vs. the Nash Suns, is Nash better than Kobe?
3) Kobe was on better teams and accomplished less, great for him.
4) Kobe is 0-2 vs. the Stockton Jazz. Stockton > Kobe.



1999 and 2003 never happened?
Not Duncan's problem when Kobe would rather miss the playoffs and got kicked in the nuts by Nsh to avoid a walloping by Duncan and the Spurs in 05 and 07.



, defended 1-1 throughout his career vs. the Spurs.



Shaq was easy to contain? He was uncontainable, that's the problem. Not only the Spurs, but the entire league was game-planning against Shaq for three straight years with no success. The only guy who had success stopping Shaq was Kobe, by ballhogging and shooting the Lakers out of the Finals in 04.

scoring against Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels being the highlight of his career.



FYI, Kobe failed to defend "his" le twice, and last time Kobe was in the playoffs, he choked on his turnovers.



Duncan had Steve Smith, Rose and Willis started for him in his CHAMPIONSHIP year.
He had Elliott with one kidney, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie as his starters in another CHAMPIONSHIP year.

He also had Udoka, Jefferson, Keith Bogans, Dejuan Blair, Rasho, Nazr, Roger Mason starting next to him in other points in his career.

, acting like Duncan had an allstar cast compared to Kobe, when Duncan NEVER had a team mate as good as Shaq (or even remotely as good), and his best 2nd banana wasn't even as good as MVPau in his prime. Then you have guys like Odom, Bynum, Malone, Payton, and Dwight.

Fisher (One of the most clutch ers of all time), Horry, Artest...

[eyeh8u]

there's never been a time when the Spurs beat Kobe and went on to win a le.....

Didnt they beat the Lakers in the WCSF and Win the le in 03?

[djohn2oo8]

Didnt they beat the Lakers in the WCSF and Win the le in 03?

[ambchang]

Didnt they beat the Lakers in the WCSF and Win the le in 03?

Well.. Since Kobe was a clear second banana/role player, you can argue the spurs beat shaq instead.

[ambchang]

Kool dropping nukes.

. Using your own troll account to support yourself. Especially when. One of those "arguments" even made sense in the first place.

[RsxPiimp]

Not his troll tbh

[ambchang]

Not his troll tbh

No way can you convince me that there are two people on earth stupid enough to that actually think those were arguments.

[Killakobe81]

Still here, amb?

[ambchang]

Yeah, why? Did I miss one of your points or something?

Otoh, KoolAidMan is too chicken to even show up, and is using his troll account to support himself.