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  1. #301
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    “We do not want to go to war, but if the Russians knew that the West would stand behind us, they would not have taken Crimea,” said Oleksandr Kress, a 29-year-old engineer who was also in line to sign up for the national guard. The government is taking men as young as 15 and as old as 45. The first training sessions for the new force began last week.

    “But we know now that they don’t stand behind us,” Kress said. “We know now that we must help ourselves.”

    Near Independence Square, where the hundreds of activists who challenged Yanukovych are still living in a makeshift tent city, walls were adorned Sunday with posters and signs calling for peace, as well as several railing against Russian President Vladimir Putin. Accountants Irina Prischepa, 28, and Svetlana Chernykh, 34, stood in the square holding a sign that said: “Putin, hands off our Motherland.”

    Both women thanked the West for its support thus far and praised the cool heads that have avoided a military clash.



    See how easy it all is Boots? Conflicting views of what the West should do within Kiev. But the neocon Western industrialists are the problem helps you make all the complexity go away...

  2. #302
    Lab Animal Capt Bringdown's Avatar
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    Jeffrey Sommers/Michael Hudson: Russia, Crimea and the Consequences of NATO Policy -->>

    The Crimea has been part of Russia for three hundred years. It is populated overwhelmingly by Russian speakers, who watch with alarm the rightwing nationalist violence in Kiev, all the more as many of its leaders are establishing symbolic and outright ideological ties with the old German Nazis. Viktor Yanunkovych was as much a crook as Ukraine’s previous kleptocratic leaders who wielded political power to rob the state and its public domain, neoliberal style. The Crimean population has reason to fear that their elected President was illegally deposed not for his kleptocracy, but as part of a regional and ethnic iden y politics of the sort that the Americans are sponsoring throughout the world, from the e/Sunni split to similar splits in countries they seek to control. The only protection available is from Russia. That is the gift that Obama has given Putin, making him a defender of Ukraine rather than the aggressor. more -->>

  3. #303
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    "But the neocon Western industrialists are the problem helps you make all the complexity go away"

    you're hilariously out of your depth.

  4. #304
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    The West wanted Putin's puppet out of power, for financial and/or geo-political reasons.

    It doesn't matter that Putin's puppet was democratically elected, just like it didn't matter that Allende and Mossadegh were democratically elected. For the USA, democracy in other countries is a priority when it serves USA's interests. If it doesn't, democracy counts for nothing.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 03-17-2014 at 06:29 AM.

  5. #305
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    The West wanted Putin's puppet out of power, for financial and/or geo-political reasons.

    It doesn't matter that Putin's puppet was democratically elected, just like it didn't matter that Allende and Mossadegh were democratically elected. For the USA, democracy in other countries is a priority when it serves USA's interests. If it doesn't, democracy counts for nothing.
    How does it serve US interests to have the Ukraine in turmoil?

    Fool...

  6. #306
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    "But the neocon Western industrialists are the problem helps you make all the complexity go away"

    you're hilariously out of your depth.
    You have one argument to cover all international conflicts.
    Just like the anti evolution folks who always fall back on some form of disguised creation.
    Hypocrite...

  7. #307
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    How does it serve US interests to have the Ukraine in turmoil?

    Fool...
    The expectation, if you were clever enough to see past this week, of course is that the turmoil will result in a pro-Western colony, ally, weatlh-extraction target of US/EU corporate interests.

  8. #308
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
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    To try to get back to the original point…

    Who among us wants to go to war over the Crimea? I honestly don't care what the right wing is saying about this. But regardless of whether or not Obama is weak or strong, why the should the U.S. do anything at all about it?

  9. #309
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    To try to get back to the original point…

    Who among us wants to go to war over the Crimea? I honestly don't care what the right wing is saying about this. But regardless of whether or not Obama is weak or strong, why the should the U.S. do anything at all about it?
    I think a huge majority of Americans don't want any more wars. I don't know what the Repugs want to do about Ukraine, other that slander Obama as weak, without saying what a Repug President would do as "strong".

    I don't think we can anything about Ukraine at all. US/EU has done enough damage already. Let it roll to the finish now.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 03-17-2014 at 11:01 AM.

  10. #310
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    I think a huge majority of Americans don't want any more wars. I don't know what the Repugs want to do about Ukraine, other that slander Obama as weak, without saying what a Repug President would do as "strong".

    I don't think we can anything about Ukraine at all. US/EU has done enough damage already. Let it roll to the finish now.
    Well, agreed completely that most Americans don't want any more wars anywhere right now. Re: republicans…obviously McCain would put American troops on the ground in the Ukraine, but then he would also have put American troops on the ground in Egypt and Libya and Syria and…..

    And of course Palin is on record as saying that the U.S. should "nuke" Russia over this. Brilliance personified, eh?

    However, the republicans cannot pretend that W. did anything when Russia invaded Georgia, so that pretty much leaves them just posturing for political gain.

    And so, political posturing aside, there is nothing that we will do, nothing that we should do, and nothing that republicans in office have done in the past in similar situations.

    After Iraq, the U.S. has zero credibility criticizing anyone else for invading a sovereign nation.

    We should all just shut up about it and be on our way.

  11. #311
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...ar-339724.html







    Isaac Webb


    SEE ALSO


    Gorbachev: People of Crimea amend Soviet-era mistake



    In the wake of a March 16 referendum in which Crimeans voted to join the Russian Federation, Ukrainian leaders refused to cede any part of the peninsula, calling on their troops to prepare for war.

    “Crimea was, is, and will be our territory,” said Defense Minister Ihor Tenyukh in a statement delivered at the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center on March 17.

    Former heavyweight boxing champion and leader of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform Vitali Klitschko announced that Ukrainian troops would remain at their bases, even after March 21, the end of a peace treaty signed by the interior ministries of Ukraine and Russia.

    In accordance with the March 16 peace treaty, the Russian Interior Ministry promised to allow Ukrainian soldiers to pass freely into and out of their bases, which Russian troops had surrounded for more than two weeks. Tenyukh said that the Russian military had thus far respected the terms of the treaty.

    Although tensions have de-escalated around military bases in Crimea since the signing of the treaty, neither side is prepared to back down. The Russian government expects that Ukrainian troops will surrender their military bases before the conclusion of the treaty. The Ukrainian government has said that it will not withdraw forces from Crimea, using the peace as an opportunity to replenish supplies for Ukrainian troops stationed on Crimean bases.

    When asked whether Ukrainian troops would fight to defend Crimea, Tenyukh replied tersely, “The armed forces will execute their tasks, ” later adding, “Ukrainian forces will stay [in Crimea] until all their tasks have been completed.”

    Earlier on March 17, the Ukrainian parliament voted to allot 6.7 billion hryvnia (more than $600 million) to bolster the country’s defenses over the next three months, and to partially mobilize the armed forces.

    Tenyukh said that the mobilization was intended to bring the military to “full readiness.” The Verkhovna Rada called for 40,000 troops to be mobilized, calling on reservists to prepare for active duty.

    As the Ukrainian economy teeters on the verge of default, the country’s top leaders have been forced to devote resources to bolstering Ukraine’s military, which many believe former President Victor Yanukovich intentionally undermined over the course of his three and a half year reign.

    Klitschko said Ukrainian parliamentarians were prepared to send 25 percent of their salaries to “support patriots in Crimea.”

    Pavlo Petrenko, Ukraine’s Justice Minister, said that the “the most important issue is to restore the military might of Ukraine.”

    “Our army should be ready for combat,” said Petrenko.

    Klitschko reiterated that the March 16 referendum in Crimea was conducted illegally, and that the peninsula remains “part and parcel” of Ukraine. As such, the Ukrainian government will continue to provide services to Crimea, including electricity, gas, and water.

    In another indication of deteriorating relations between Ukraine and Russia, Klitschko announced that Volodymyr Yelchenko, the Ukrainian ambassador to Russia, would be recalled from Moscow for consultations with the newly formed government in Kyiv.

    The escalation in rhetoric comes as pro-Kremlin Crimean leaders took the first steps towards integration into the Russian Federation.

    The Crimean Supreme Council voted on March 17 to introduce Moscow time to Crimea on March 30. On the same day, Crimean leaders announced that the Russian ruble would begin circulating alongside the Ukrainian hryvnia and would become the only currency in Crimea by Jan. 1.

  12. #312
    Veteran HI-FI's Avatar
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    I think a huge majority of Americans don't want any more wars. I don't know what the Repugs want to do about Ukraine, other that slander Obama as weak, without saying what a Repug President would do as "strong".

    I don't think we can anything about Ukraine at all. US/EU has done enough damage already. Let it roll to the finish now.
    i don't want any wars, so I'm not critical of Obama on this, though I don't think he's come across as a competent or confident leader. But avoiding any WW3 is fine with me. Though while the boutons and other astroturfers get boners from the idea of Russia and CHina growing in power, that aspect does bother me.

  13. #313
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    Things are escalating. In response to Obama sanctioning 11 Russians, it looks like Russia is about to counter sanction John McCain.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...officials.html

    lol

  14. #314
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    I guess Obama wants to hurt our grain exports farmers again...

  15. #315
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    I guess Obama wants to hurt our grain exports farmers again...
    Get back in here you stupid .

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=230153&page=3

  16. #316
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Who is the stupid who can only link material instead of specifying his stupid concern?

    What good will sanctions do? This is a done deal. Unless we are going to go to war, or harm innocent people to get at Putin.

    Obama's a self centered stupid , but is he really that immoral?

    The problem is. I think he is that immoral.

  17. #317
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    If it's gonna happen, bring it on. Stop with the whole "will they, won't they" bull and let's either see this go down or move the on.

  18. #318
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    Why does the United states care so much that Russian people want to join back with motherland Russia? What is the big fuss over this about?

  19. #319
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    Let Russia and Ukraine duke it out.

  20. #320
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    The expectation, if you were clever enough to see past this week, of course is that the turmoil will result in a pro-Western colony, ally, weatlh-extraction target of US/EU corporate interests.
    And the people of Ukraine don't see this? How trade with other countries always harm economies and never helps.
    Boots economics 101.

    Wealth extraction. Idiot. You wanna talk about how to ruin an economy, annex Crimea. Watch the tourism dry up.
    Last edited by pgardn; 03-18-2014 at 10:10 AM.

  21. #321
    wrong about pizzagate TSA's Avatar
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    Who is the stupid who can only link material instead of specifying his stupid concern?

    What good will sanctions do? This is a done deal. Unless we are going to go to war, or harm innocent people to get at Putin.

    Obama's a self centered stupid , but is he really that immoral?

    The problem is. I think he is that immoral.
    I'm concerned with your inability to grasp the situation at hand.

  22. #322
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    How Bad Might It Get In Ukraine?

    Mar 17 2014 @ 2:20pm


    by Jonah Shepp

    Very bad, says Paul Hockenos, who compares the situation today to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s:


    [A]nyone who followed the unfolding of the wars in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, and Kosovo is surely horrified today by the dynamics between Russia’s Vladimir Putin, the Ukrainian leadership, the people of Crimea, and citizens in the rest of Ukraine. The similarities to the Balkans of the 1990s are, in many ways, striking: Just as Serbia and Croatia cynically exploited the presence of their compatriots outside the borders of their republics, so too is Putin manipulating the welfare of the Russophone Crimeans as justification for cross-border military operations, the seizure of territory, and a phoney referendum. As in the Balkans, the media has been turned into the mouthpiece of extreme nationalists. Once again, there’s inadequate security architecture to defuse tensions; and then there’s the radicalization of nationalism which, when fanned so fiercely, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and, in the Balkans, led to Europe’s worst bloodshed since World War II.

    Alexander Motyl fears ethnic strife in Crimea:

    Unsurprisingly, Ukrainians are terrified by Putin’s warmongering. A friend in Lviv, which is as far as one can be from Ukraine’s eastern border (or is it front?) with Russia, tells me that “people are petrified and believe war is inevitable.” So are Crimean Tatars, whose ancestral land has already been occupied by Putin’s troops and who remember Stalin’s genocidal policies in 1944, when the entire Tatar population was deported to Central Asia and half died.
    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/...et-in-ukraine/

  23. #323
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I'm concerned with your inability to grasp the situation at hand.
    All I see is people jumping to unfounded conclusions. Crimea has not been treated well by the Ukrainians. Funny how the people voted over 95% to join Russia.

  24. #324
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    WC endorses the plebiscite

  25. #325
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    And the people of Ukraine don't see this? How trade with other counties always harm economies and never helps.
    Boots economics 101.

    Wealth extraction. Idiot. You wanna talk about how to ruin an economy, annex Crimea. Watch the tourism dry up.
    Ukraine sheeple are probably less informed, less engaged than USA sheeple

    US/EU corps would not be pulling Ukraine away from Russia and towards the West if the corps losers in trade.

    Crimea is an econmic blackhole for Ukraine. Good riddance. Now it's Putin problem to prop up.

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