***Official 2014-2015 Houston Texans thread***

[spurraider21]

There's no double standard. You posted a very selective video of highlights and even in that I pointed out a few obvious flaws. His urge to improvise is going to get him killed and it's his flaw just like other running qb's like my boy Pryor.

Also sorry I'm not going to give him bonus points on completion percentage because he stupidly runs out of the pocket and kills his efficiency. Same with why I don't feel bad for Kobe's fg% because they are of a high degree of difficulty. I don't give bonus points for ty shot decision and I will hold the same principle for a qb that runs out of the pocket too much as opposed to the more disciplined qb's in the draft

[Chinook]

If anything, you're the one with the double-standard, FkLA. We're arguing Manziel is a poor prospect due to his size, decision-making and at ude. Your only arguments for him are based on stats and highlights. We show other college QBs with similar production and flaws, and you argue stats and highlights don't mean anything.

Throughout all this, I think you are misunderstand the nature of the argument I'm making against you. Manziel's college production has no bearing on his NFL prospects. What does are his size, lack of pocket-presence and poor decision-making. His biggest positives are negated by the jump in compe ion, which is closer to an order of magnitude than it is a step up. I don't think you fully appreciate how little of what made Football a great college player will translate long-term.

[FkLA]

There's no double standard. You posted a very selective video of highlights and even in that I pointed out a few obvious flaws. His urge to improvise is going to get him killed and it's his flaw just like other running qb's like my boy Pryor.

Also sorry I'm not going to give him bonus points on completion percentage because he stupidly runs out of the pocket and kills his efficiency. Same with why I don't feel bad for Kobe's fg% because they are of a high degree of difficulty. I don't give bonus points for ty shot decision and I will hold the same principle for a qb that runs out of the pocket too much as opposed to the more disciplined qb's in the draft

smgdh I am done trying to have a reasonable conversation with you tbh.

If anything, you're the one with the double-standard, FkLA. We're arguing Manziel is a poor prospect due to his size, decision-making and at ude. Your only arguments for him are based on stats and highlights. We show other college QBs with similar production and flaws, and you argue stats and highlights don't mean anything.

What guys have you showed that have similar production and flaws? Youve brought up Young who just had a ridiculous throwing motion+release and who never came close to Football's production or accuracy. You brought up Troy Smith who never even had a 3000 yd season through the air. Never as accurate. Same with Pryor. Thats without even taking into account the fact that the compe ion they faced wasn't on par with what Football faced.

It is absolutely a double standard if you read through the thread. It's unfair to compare him to Vick because Vick's arm is stronger but perfectly reasonable to compare him to Young who's arm was a liability. Completely reasonable to compare him to players who's arms and accuracy aren't on par with his. Then you look at the flip side of it and instead of bringing up the hundreds of pocket passers with prototypical size that have flamed out, all you hear is how Peyton/Brady/Rogers are pocket passers. As if any of this year's class of pocket passers has the potential to ever be that good. It's ridiculous tbqh.

Throughout all this, I think you are misunderstand the nature of the argument I'm making against you. Manziel's college production has no bearing on his NFL prospects. What does are his size, lack of pocket-presence and poor decision-making. His biggest positives are negated by the jump in compe ion, which is closer to an order of magnitude than it is a step up. I don't think you fully appreciate how little of what made Football a great college player will translate long-term.

Saying Manziel's stats have no bearing on his NFL prospects is foolish. No doubt there is a jump in compe ion, but the best from college tend to be the dominant ones in the NFL--same with the jump from HS to college. That's just how it works. There's plenty of big, smart QB prospect that lived in the pocket and were absolute busts. Yet somehow that's the only way to judge a QB? Get out of here.

[FkLA]

There's no double standard. You posted a very selective video of highlights and even in that I pointed out a few obvious flaws. His urge to improvise is going to get him killed and it's his flaw just like other running qb's like my boy Pryor.

Also sorry I'm not going to give him bonus points on completion percentage because he stupidly runs out of the pocket and kills his efficiency. Same with why I don't feel bad for Kobe's fg% because they are of a high degree of difficulty. I don't give bonus points for ty shot decision and I will hold the same principle for a qb that runs out of the pocket too much as opposed to the more disciplined qb's in the draft

smgdh I am done trying to have a reasonable conversation with you tbh.

If anything, you're the one with the double-standard, FkLA. We're arguing Manziel is a poor prospect due to his size, decision-making and at ude. Your only arguments for him are based on stats and highlights. We show other college QBs with similar production and flaws, and you argue stats and highlights don't mean anything.

What guys have you showed that have similar production and flaws? Youve brought up Young who just had a ridiculous throwing motion+release and who never came close to Football's production or accuracy. You brought up Troy Smith who never even had a 3000 yd season through the air. Never as accurate. Same with Pryor. Thats without even taking into account the fact that the compe ion they faced wasn't on par with what Football faced.

It is absolutely a double standard if you read through the thread. It's unfair to compare him to Vick because Vick's arm is stronger but perfectly reasonable to compare him to Young who's arm was a liability. Completely reasonable to compare him to players who's arms and accuracy aren't on par with his. Then you look at the flip side of it and instead of bringing up the hundreds of pocket passers with prototypical size that have flamed out, all you hear is how Peyton/Brady/Rogers are pocket passers. As if any of this year's class of pocket passers has the potential to ever be that good. It's ridiculous tbqh.

Throughout all this, I think you are misunderstand the nature of the argument I'm making against you. Manziel's college production has no bearing on his NFL prospects. What does are his size, lack of pocket-presence and poor decision-making. His biggest positives are negated by the jump in compe ion, which is closer to an order of magnitude than it is a step up. I don't think you fully appreciate how little of what made Football a great college player will translate long-term.

Saying Manziel's stats have no bearing on his NFL prospects is foolish. No doubt there is a jump in compe ion, but the best from college tend to be the dominant ones in the NFL--same with the jump from HS to college. That's just how it works. There's plenty of big, smart QB prospects that lived in the pocket and were absolute busts. Yet somehow that's the only way to judge a QB? Get out of here with that nonsense.

[FkLA]

You're in the there's only one way for a QB to have success camp. They need to be big, with limited mobility and must live in the pocket! It really is ignorant to believe there will never be a dual-threat guy that will come along and enjoy success. It's akin to saying black QBs can't win. I happen to think Football is that guy.

[Pelicans78]

Yes!! No to Inbred.

I guess Clowney is the choice. I like Bortles as the best QB, but not as the top pick. Not sold on Manziel or Bridgewater long-term. Really dislike Bridgewater as a potential top prospect. Screams average to solid QB at best.

[Chinook]

You're in the there's only one way for a QB to have success camp. They need to be big, with limited mobility and must live in the pocket! It really is ignorant to believe there will never be a dual-threat guy that will come along and enjoy success. It's akin to saying black QBs can't win. I happen to think Football is that guy.

As a black man, I find your equation of running quarterbacks to black quarterbacks absurd and offensive. A person's race has little bearing on their ability to do a job. The method by which they go about doing a job does affect how well they perform at said job. It's legitimate and certainly not prejudicial to question whether a running QB can win it all. There's too much evidence to ignore the fact that running QBs aren't successful long-term.

You have the burden of proof, not us. You have to show why Manziel breaks the mold. We've already talked about why he doesn't, and you just keep jumping through hoops. He's not a good passer. At best, he's an average one as a prospect. He's below average as an elite prospect. That's why I keep calling Manziel a running QB. His passing is only worth talking about in the context of his running. It doesn't look good in comparison to any of the non-running QBs. The NFL will take away his running ability, leaving his questionable passing ability, poor height and injury risk as his defining features.

And for the love of god, stop repping college passing stats. Graham Harrel dominated Manziel in every passing stat known to man, and he's still a practice-squad player. Stats and production mean very little for pro prospects. That's why so many Heisman winners bust and the best NFL QBs were second-tier college players.

[FkLA]

As a black man, I find your equation of running quarterbacks to black quarterbacks absurd and offensive. A person's race has little bearing on their ability to do a job. The method by which they go about doing a job does affect how well they perform at said job. It's legitimate and certainly not prejudicial to question whether a running QB can win it all. There's too much evidence to ignore the fact that running QBs aren't successful long-term.

What if the method they use is different yet effective? You're ignoring his effectiveness through the air simply because he can also run. He's automatically destined to become Pryor or Smith even though they were never the passers he is and ran a completely different offense.

I have never claimed Football is a sure thing. He's no Luck. He could end up flopping and if he ends up performing like some of the guys brought up then he will flop. For example, I would have no problem with an argument that goes something like this...hey Football seems to have better mechanics and more accurate than the majority of his dual-threat predecessors. His predecessors didn't enjoy the most success though, and I'm not sure if better mechanics and accuracy is enough to yield significantly different results.

^Perfectly reasonable. OTOH, your argument basically consists of equating him to lesser players.

You have the burden of proof, not us. You have to show why Manziel breaks the mold. We've already talked about why he doesn't, and you just keep jumping through hoops. He's not a good passer. At best, he's an average one as a prospect. He's below average as an elite prospect. That's why I keep calling Manziel a running QB. His passing is only worth talking about in the context of his running. It doesn't look good in comparison to any of the non-running QBs. The NFL will take away his running ability, leaving his questionable passing ability, poor height and injury risk as his defining features.

You haven't shown me anything. All you've done is bring up lesser QBs--to the eye and statistically. You compare them to Football and somehow that 'proves' he can't enjoy any success. You said in an earlier post that he was indisputably A&M's version of Vince Young. I brought up key, obvious flaws that Vince had that Football doesn't and you just choose to ignore that. How does that make any sense?

And for the love of god, stop repping college passing stats. Graham Harrel dominated Manziel in every passing stat known to man, and he's still a practice-squad player. Stats and production mean very little for pro prospects. That's why so many Heisman winners bust and the best NFL QBs were second-tier college players.

There are plenty of good QBs in the NFL that put up solid passing stats in college. That's the I'm talking about, let's go out and find one undrafted guy and single him out to discredit Football's stats. That's not how it works, my man. Stats aren't everything and noone is saying he'll dominate at the same level but they mean a lot more than what you're claiming.

Colt was a pocket guy at UT. Smart, good size. He didn't pan out. Does that mean if I use your logic I can now say size, smarts and pocket presence are irrelevant ?

[spurraider21]

I'm a Russell Wilson fan... I have nothing against qb's that can run

[FkLA]

Those guys are Running QB 1.0 and Football is Running QB 2.0...they aren't the same.

You guys are insistent that he is even though he has a bigger arsenal than his predecessors.

[Chinook]

Dude, you're seriously being obtuse on this issue. We've shown you Manziel has awful decision-making and poor pocket presence. Why you keep acting like that doesn't matter is beyond me. He's not a good passer. You keep ignoring his flaws with throwing the god-damned football. And that would be fine if you didn't keep claiming that no one is critiquing Manziel's actual play.

You need to read what people write. I never said NFL quarterbacks weren't good in college. I said almost none were at the top in college. RGIII was a better college QB than Luck. Tory Smith was better than Flacco. , Flacco couldn't even start at Pitt. The college game is so different from the pro game that almost no production translates.

Colt is short like Manziel. I have no idea why you think he isn't. Harrell is as well. Smith is as well. Colt's size and weak arm ( which was plenty strong for college) is what did him in. He also was a dual-threat QB, even more so than Manziel. He could complete 70 percent of his passes and run a 50-yard TD. He'll probably end up in the college football HOF along with Tebow.

I called Manziel A&M's Vince Young because he has fans who ignorantly disregard his flaws and act like his college production supercedes his very obvious weaknesses. Despite how blatant it seems to you that he sucked, Young was once considered a solid prospect. People thought they could clean up the bad and build up the good. But they found that all he was was horrible habits that he got away with due to being athletically superior to his defenders. You're acting like a new-age Young fan. That's why you say silly things like Manziel makes jump-passes work. People thought Young made side-armed passes work.

I'll be direct with one question. What the does Manziel do that makes him a superior NFL prospect? Name one quality that he does better than the other QBs in this draft. And if that quality is running, improvising or especially "making plays", kindly sit yourself down, because you just destroyed your entire argument.

[FkLA]

Dude, you're seriously being obtuse on this issue. We've shown you Manziel has awful decision-making and poor pocket presence. Why you keep acting like that doesn't matter is beyond me. He's not a good passer. You keep ignoring his flaws with throwing the god-damned football. And that would be fine if you didn't keep claiming that no one is critiquing Manziel's actual play.

You keep saying you've shown me this or that. I haven't seen anything.

Awful decision making? Sorry but a play or two where he throws across his body to a wide open guy doesn't show me that. Throwing over defender's heads right into his player's hands, I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Throwing to the outside shoulder with a defender draped all over his teammate? Throwing up a jumpball for Mike Evans? Far from awful.

Pocket presence is a work in progress. He's made huge strides in one year already. He's only 21, I don't think this is his ceiling.

You need to read what people write. I never said NFL quarterbacks weren't good in college. I said almost none were at the top in college. RGIII was a better college QB than Luck. Tory Smith was better than Flacco. , Flacco couldn't even start at Pitt. The college game is so different from the pro game that almost no production translates.

You are using one undrafted guy to support your argument that they don't translate. Simple as that.

I know about the Flaccos and the Romos. But how do they discredit putting up stats in a big stage? They prove they aren't required but that's completely different than proving that stats are irrelevant.

Colt is short like Manziel. I have no idea why you think he isn't. Harrell is as well. Smith is as well. Colt's size and weak arm ( which was plenty strong for college) is what did him in. He also was a dual-threat QB, even more so than Manziel. He could complete 70 percent of his passes and run a 50-yard TD. He'll probably end up in the college football HOF along with Tebow.

6-2, 220 is short and small now?

Ok, how about Kliff Kingsbury and Kevin Kolb (6-3, 220)? Matt Leinart (6-5, 225)? There's plenty of other examples. Doesn't mean I can now claim size, smarts and pocket presence are completely irrelevant.

I called Manziel A&M's Vince Young because he has fans who ignorantly disregard his flaws and act like his college production supercedes his very obvious weaknesses. Despite how blatant it seems to you that he sucked, Young was once considered a solid prospect. People thought they could clean up the bad and build up the good. But they found that all he was was horrible habits that he got away with due to being athletically superior to his defenders. You're acting like a new-age Young fan. That's why you say silly things like Manziel makes jump-passes work. People thought Young made side-armed passes work.

The flaws aren't comparable. How do you not see this? Vince needed a complete overhaul of his mechanics, similar to Tebow. If you really think Football is in that class I don't know what to tell you. If you see the glaring difference then there's no need to call him 'A&M's Vince Young'.

I'll be direct with one question. What the does Manziel do that makes him a superior NFL prospect? Name one quality that he does better than the other QBs in this draft. And if that quality is running, improvising or especially "making plays", kindly sit yourself down, because you just destroyed your entire argument.

'Making plays' is not a bad thing.

A good passer with the ability to extend plays or make something happen when the play breaks down is better than just a good pocket passer. That's the angle I'm coming from. Obviously you seem to think Football is Troy Smith passing the ball though, so I can see why you wouldn't understand that angle.

[spurraider21]

6-2, 220 is short and small now?

who is this mystery quarterback you are referring to that is 6'2 220?

its certainly not Manziel, who checked in at the combine at below 6 feet and 210 pounds (5'11 and 3/4, 207 pounds). but hey lets just add some inches and pounds for s and giggles

[Raven]

so he thought Manziel was 6-2? Well, at least it makes sense now tbh

[leemajors]

You keep saying you've shown me this or that. I haven't seen anything.

Awful decision making? Sorry but a play or two where he throws across his body to a wide open guy doesn't show me that. Throwing over defender's heads right into his player's hands, I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Throwing to the outside shoulder with a defender draped all over his teammate? Throwing up a jumpball for Mike Evans? Far from awful.

Pocket presence is a work in progress. He's made huge strides in one year already. He's only 21, I don't think this is his ceiling.



You are using one undrafted guy to support your argument that they don't translate. Simple as that.

I know about the Flaccos and the Romos. But how do they discredit putting up stats in a big stage? They prove they aren't required but that's completely different than proving that stats are irrelevant.



6-2, 220 is short and small now?

Ok, how about Kliff Kingsbury and Kevin Kolb (6-3, 220)? Matt Leinart (6-5, 225)? There's plenty of other examples. Doesn't mean I can now claim size, smarts and pocket presence are completely irrelevant.



The flaws aren't comparable. How do you not see this? Vince needed a complete overhaul of his mechanics, similar to Tebow. If you really think Football is in that class I don't know what to tell you. If you see the glaring difference then there's no need to call him 'A&M's Vince Young'.



'Making plays' is not a bad thing.

A good passer with the ability to extend plays or make something happen when the play breaks down is better than just a good pocket passer. That's the angle I'm coming from. Obviously you seem to think Football is Troy Smith passing the ball though, so I can see why you wouldn't understand that angle.

You don't see how throwing at a defender is a bad thing?

[Chinook]

You keep saying you've shown me this or that. I haven't seen anything.

Awful decision making? Sorry but a play or two where he throws across his body to a wide open guy doesn't show me that. Throwing over defender's heads right into his player's hands, I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Throwing to the outside shoulder with a defender draped all over his teammate? Throwing up a jumpball for Mike Evans? Far from awful.

Pocket presence is a work in progress. He's made huge strides in one year already. He's only 21, I don't think this is his ceiling.



You are using one undrafted guy to support your argument that they don't translate. Simple as that.

I know about the Flaccos and the Romos. But how do they discredit putting up stats in a big stage? They prove they aren't required but that's completely different than proving that stats are irrelevant.



6-2, 220 is short and small now?

Ok, how about Kliff Kingsbury and Kevin Kolb (6-3, 220)? Matt Leinart (6-5, 225)? There's plenty of other examples. Doesn't mean I can now claim size, smarts and pocket presence are completely irrelevant.



The flaws aren't comparable. How do you not see this? Vince needed a complete overhaul of his mechanics, similar to Tebow. If you really think Football is in that class I don't know what to tell you. If you see the glaring difference then there's no need to call him 'A&M's Vince Young'.



'Making plays' is not a bad thing.

A good passer with the ability to extend plays or make something happen when the play breaks down is better than just a good pocket passer. That's the angle I'm coming from. Obviously you seem to think Football is Troy Smith passing the ball though, so I can see why you wouldn't understand that angle.

You still don't get it. You just don't get the argument. Manziel isn't a horrible passer. He's just not a good one. He's not an elite one especially. You know this, which is why you're touting his play-making. You fail to understand that play-making gets schemed out quickly in the pros. The thing you think will make Manziel great won't exist.

That's the point. Young, Smith, McCoy, Harrell, Brennan were all elite college players for their ability to make plays and destroy college defenses. You don't appreciate how much better the NFL is. Go back and look at the Heisman-winning QBs from the last 15 years. Not many good pros there. Look at passing leaders. Kolb is up there, a product of the same system that inflated Manziel's stats. Keenum knows about that as well.

You keep believing Manziel's jump-passes and side-armed throws are magic and not flaws. And keep thinking throwing the ball hoping a defender won't lift his hands is good decision-making. I guess only time will demonstrate how wrong you are.

[Chinook]

who is this mystery quarterback you are referring to that is 6'2 220?

its certainly not Manziel, who checked in at the combine at below 6 feet and 210 pounds (5'11 and 3/4, 207 pounds). but hey lets just add some inches and pounds for s and giggles

Talking about Colt McCoy.

[Chinook]

You don't see how throwing at a defender is a bad thing?

Nah. He thinks Manziel's greatness makes it work.

[Clipper Nation]

Inbred is a gimmickPERIOD.... he might have a fluke rookie season causing the semen cloud of all semen clouds from FkLA, but he'll be exposed and recede into obscurity

[benefactor]

Let it go, Chinook. This is what he does...he just argues in circles and moves goalposts until you get tired of it and walk away. I've been down that path with him more times than I should have, unfortunately.

[Chinook]

Let it go, Chinook. This is what he does...he just argues in circles and moves goalposts until you get tired of it and walk away. I've been down that path with him more times than I should have, unfortunately.

All right. Sorry for derailing the thread, especially since it doesn't even look like the Texans are going quarterback with the first pick.

[benefactor]

No worries...it's a legit discussion for the thread when legit arguments are made. It's been made pretty clear that there is no sound argument for drafting Manziel number one.

[Raven]

i think his argument is that Manziel is the best qb in the draft, but while i obviously disagree even if that would be true, i still don't see it as a good enough argument for being a first round pick.

[FkLA]

who is this mystery quarterback you are referring to that is 6'2 220?

its certainly not Manziel, who checked in at the combine at below 6 feet and 210 pounds (5'11 and 3/4, 207 pounds). but hey lets just add some inches and pounds for s and giggles

Wow. Read before you comment, dumbass.

You don't see how throwing at a defender is a bad thing?

I don't see how throwing over a defenders head right into your receivers hands is a bad thing, no. If you watch that clip half those CBs have no idea when the ball is being thrown...what's so bad about taking advantage of that? It's intentional and effective. Not like he's doing it unintentionally bc he lacks accuracy or arm strength.

You still don't get it. You just don't get the argument. Manziel isn't a horrible passer. He's just not a good one. He's not an elite one especially. You know this, which is why you're touting his play-making. You fail to understand that play-making gets schemed out quickly in the pros. The thing you think will make Manziel great won't exist.

He's currently an average NFL passer at best which I've agreed to. But like I've also said I don't think this is his ceiling, for some inexplicable reason you seem to think he has topped out at age 21 despite the strides he's already made from his freshman year.He's going up against a couple of QB prospects that have a lot of flaws of their own. It's not like any of them are currently more than average NFL passers as well.

That's the point. Young, Smith, McCoy, Harrell, Brennan were all elite college players for their ability to make plays and destroy college defenses. You don't appreciate how much better the NFL is. Go back and look at the Heisman-winning QBs from the last 15 years. Not many good pros there. Look at passing leaders. Kolb is up there, a product of the same system that inflated Manziel's stats. Keenum knows about that as well.

I understand exactly what you're trying to say, I just think it's dumb.

Why are you so selective with the QBs you bring up? I can be selective and use Kingsbury, Kolb, Leinart, etc, etc to talk about smart pocket guys with good size too but how unreasonable would that be when some of the elite QBs in the NFL have those qualities? That's basically what you are doing with stats.

You keep believing Manziel's jump-passes and side-armed throws are magic and not flaws. And keep thinking throwing the ball hoping a defender won't lift his hands is good decision-making. I guess only time will demonstrate how wrong you are.

Ok, drop the jump pass thing. He made that jump pass maybe 5-10 times throughout his two years at A&M it's not even a big part of his game. If he gets rid of it it's no big deal. What about his effectiveness outside the pocket? I brought that up right before the jump passes and it's something that he utilizes alot more. You've been conveniently ignoring that. That's normally a low percentage play but not for him. Called plays breakdown, extending plays is a skill in college or the NFL.

[FkLA]

Let it go, Chinook. This is what he does...he just argues in circles and moves goalposts until you get tired of it and walk away. I've been down that path with him more times than I should have, unfortunately.

STFU you Dunning-Kruger walking exhibit.

i think his argument is that Manziel is the best qb in the draft, but while i obviously disagree even if that would be true, i still don't see it as a good enough argument for being a first round pick.

Need? I don't think any of them are a sure thing.