Spurs: Just so we're clear::: Kobe: 5 - the tired old

[spurraider21]

Keywords: among elite teams

So if you're not on an elite team you have 0 chance of winning it. BUT you can still get in the top 5 voting on a mediocre team if you had a great season.

its very rare for the elite players to not be on elite teams. even lebron's ty cavs were elite record wise. duncan in the pre-big 3, robinson TOSB days always had the spurs up there. look at the post-dwight magic.

[midnightpulp]

If you look at the top 10, besides Cousy, it has 9 players that most people have in the top 10 - mj,russ,kaj,magic,kobe,shaq,duncan,bird,wilt. So I think its a pretty good rating scale tbh.

Scoring les, rebounding les, assists les, fg% les, and ft% les matter and are significant. Only a Duncan fan would think otherwise since Duncan did not have dominant stats.

Neither does Kobe. Even Dirk is a better playoff scorer than him. And Kobe's rebounding and assist averages are fairly unremarkable, par for his position.

Get rid of rings/Finals appearances. Cousy should not be that high.

And for someone who values playoff stats above all, why are you weighting regular season averages/playoff averages and totals the same?

For per game stats, do this:

30+ ppg - 5 points
25-29.9ppg - 4 points
20-24.9ppg - 3 points
18 -19.9 - 2 points
15 - 17.9 - 1

RPG (we'll rate rebounding a point lower, since it's a less important stat than PPG)

15+ - 4 points
12-14.9 - 3 points
10-11.9 - 2 points
7-9.9 - 1 point

APG

10+ - 4 points
7-9.9 - 3 points
4-6.9 - 2 points
3-3.9 - 1 point

BLK/STL per game

2.5+ - 3 points
2.0-2.4 - 2 points
1.0-1.9 - 1 point

TS%

.600+ - 4 points
.570-.599 - 3 points
.520-.549 - 2 points
.500-.519 - 1 point

[Deuce Bigalow]

Really? How many does Lebron have again? How about Jordan?

The National Basketball Association Most Valuable Player (MVP) is an annual National Basketball Association (NBA) award given since the 1955–56 NBA season to the best performing player of the season.

Since the media started voting for you basically need to at least be on a 50-win team.

Until the 1979–80 season, the MVP was originally selected by a vote of NBA players. However, since the 1980–81 season, the award is decided by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada

Since the 1982–83 season, every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season, except the lockout-shortened 50-game 1998–99 season when Karl Malone won and the lockout-shortened 66-game 2011–12 season when James won).[5]

Unless you think Nash was the best player in '05 and '06? AI in '01, ect

[Deuce Bigalow]

its very rare for the elite players to not be on elite teams. even lebron's ty cavs were elite record wise. duncan in the pre-big 3, robinson TOSB days always had the spurs up there. look at the post-dwight magic.

Oscar ing Robertson, Wilt, Kareem, Rick Barry, KG, Kobe off the top of my head.

[Sybok]

Since the media started voting for you basically need to at least be on a 50-win team.

Until the 1979–80 season, the MVP was originally selected by a vote of NBA players. However, since the 1980–81 season, the award is decided by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada

Since the 1982–83 season, every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season, except the lockout-shortened 50-game 1998–99 season when Karl Malone won and the lockout-shortened 66-game 2011–12 season when James won).[5]

Unless you think Nash was the best player in '05 and '06? AI in '01, ect

You don't seem to have a problem with it the season Kobe won it. How about you get rid of all voted accolades.

[Sybok]

Oscar ing Robertson, Wilt, Kareem, Rick Barry, KG, Kobe off the top of my head.

The years KG was on a ty team, what other elite players were on ty teams? KG made the playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Neither does Kobe. Even Dirk is a better playoff scorer than him. And Kobe's rebounding and assist averages are fairly unremarkable, par for his position.

Get rid of rings/Finals appearances. Cousy should not be that high.

And for someone who values playoff stats above all, why are you weighting regular season averages/playoff averages and totals the same?

For per game stats, do this:

30+ ppg - 5 points
25-29.9ppg - 4 points
20-24.9ppg - 3 points
18 -19.9 - 2 points
15 - 17.9 - 1

RPG (we'll rate rebounding a point lower, since it's a less important stat than PPG)

15+ - 4 points
12-14.9 - 3 points
10-11.9 - 2 points
7-9.9 - 1 point

APG

10+ - 4 points
7-9.9 - 3 points
4-6.9 - 2 points
3-3.9 - 1 point

BLK/STL per game

2.5+ - 3 points
2.0-2.4 - 2 points
1.0-1.9 - 1 point

TS%

.600+ - 4 points
.570-.599 - 3 points
.520-.549 - 2 points
.500-.519 - 1 point

I can do it for Kobe, you do it for Duncan.

[midnightpulp]

Christ!

Leading the league in scoring is "cherrypicking"

It is. Allen Iverson led the league in scoring 4 times (inefficiently so).

Lebron's only done it once.

If we "award" points for scoring les, AI gets an undeserved 4 times as many points than Lebron in that category.

It's arbitrary.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You don't seem to have a problem with it the season Kobe won it. How about you get rid of all voted accolades.

How about we get rid of everything. Nothing counts dude

[Blake]

How good would it be to see:

Duncan: 6

Kobe: 5

[Deuce Bigalow]

It is. Allen Iverson led the league in scoring 4 times (inefficiently so).

Lebron's only done it once.

If we "award" points for scoring les, AI gets an undeserved 4 times as many points than Lebron in that category.

It's arbitrary.

Like I said, you can spin any one stat all you want. That's why you add everything up.

rings?
fmvps?
mvps?
all-nba first teams?

I'm sure Lebron has AI beat handily in those...

Nash has 2 MVPs but Baylor and West have 0 combined. See? Does that mean we throw MVPs out too? No because if you add everything up Nash will not be ahead of them.

[midnightpulp]

I can do it for Kobe, you do it for Duncan.

I just did Duncan's playoff averages and got a score of 11.

Anyhow, I'm thinking a 1 to 1 ratio might be better.

30 ppg = 30 points
29 ppg = 29 points

15 rpg = 15 points

etc

Subtract turnovers per game from the overall total (since TOs do indeed lose games, as we saw with Manu) and add in TS% accordingly.

[spurraider21]

that point system is so arbitrary 5 points for 30+ ppg, but 4 points for 29.9 ppg... thats ridiculous. it should be a graduated system, just have a multiplier for each stat...

the difference between averaging 30 and 35 is nothing, but scoring 29.9 is penalized

[midnightpulp]

Like I said, you can spin any one stat all you want. That's why you add everything up.

rings?
fmvps?
mvps?
all-nba first teams?

I'm sure Lebron has AI beat handily in those...

Nash has 2 MVPs but Baylor and West have 0 combined. See? Does that mean we throw MVPs out too? No because if you add everything up Nash will not be ahead of them.

But it might put Nash above someone he's doesn't deserve to be above. And truth be told, I'm not a fan of MVPs/Finals MVPs, either. This is where I use common sense. Cedric Maxwell might've won a Finals MVP at the expense of Bird, but there was no doubt that Bird was the primary reason the Celtics got to and won the Finals, therefore he's the actual MVP of that team. Same when Worthy won it (Magic was the MVP of the Lakers). Parker. Etc.

This is also the fatal flaw in counting rings/Finals appearances. It overrates players like Cousy, Havlicek, and even Russell while punishing West, Baylor, Oscar, etc.

[midnightpulp]

that point system is so arbitrary 5 points for 30+ ppg, but 4 points for 29.9 ppg... thats ridiculous. it should be a graduated system, just have a multiplier for each stat...

the difference between averaging 30 and 35 is nothing, but scoring 29.9 is penalized

See my post above yours.

[spurraider21]

wrong. its 5-4 thus kobe is better obviously

[spurraider21]

See my post above yours.

ah, i probably missed that while typing. still, its a shame there aren't sufficient metrics to grade defense

[Clipper Nation]

Stat 's schtick getting destroyed on other sites too:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=330446

[spurraider21]

but only spurstalk things duncan > kobe

[UZER]

Please tell me who should have been shooting Kobe's shots in that series besides Shaq who was the leading scorer?
Go ahead post Kobe's "stacked" 04 Finals teams stats.

So his teammates against PHX were better than the 04 squad? Thats why he deferred to them in the most important game if that season?

You cant justify one and excuse the other. But thats what you Kobe fans do.

[313]

Stat 's schtick getting destroyed on other sites too:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=330446

EXACTLY. Because Bean has little impact on that end of the floor. Put Duncan on that team in place of Bean and they win at least 50, rank much higher than last in defense, and make the second round. AT LEAST.

Now put Bean on that '02-'03 Spurs team and they look an awful lot like the Lakers in '04-'05

'03-'04 Miami Heat
C- Brian Grant
PF- Lamar Odom
SF- Caron Butler
SG- Eddie Jones
PG- Dwyane Wade (rookie season)

42-40 record (#9 Defense), beat NO 4-3 in first round, lost 4-2 in second round to Pacers

'04-'05 LA Lakers
C- Chris Mihm
PF- Lamar Odom
SF- Caron Butler
SG- Kobe Bryant (first year not playing w/ Shaq)
PG- Chucky Atkins

34-48 record (30th/30 in defense), missed the playoffs

Like I said, without at least an all star level big man Bean is a poor man's Allen Iverson.

Duncan easily has the bigger impact and is the greater player. The only advantage Bean holds is playing sidekick to the MDE.

[313]

Deuce Bigalow come spin this

[313]

Rookie D whistle > prime kobrick

[elmanutres]

It will be
Duncan: 5
3(or 4) fmvp
2 reg season mvp's

TOSB Kobe: 5
2 fmvp
1 reg season mvp

[LkrFan]

wrong. its 5-4 thus kobe is better obviously

True True