OT: if you had to pick 1 player to build around for the next 10 years

[spurraider21]

The next 4 years are part of the next 10 years. No franchise has a 5 year plan.

Of course they don't in actuality. But this thread is specifically asking about a 10 year plan

[Chinook]

Personally, I think Davis is the easiest to build around in a vacuum. Cleveland showed how hard it is to put a le team around James. The Heatles getting together is not something I think is repeatable, and it's crazy how much James had needed Wade and Bosh to step up. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is the best player to have ever lived. But he's still a small-forward. Durant will be in his post-prime in 10 years, which is perfectly acceptable. But he's even harder to build around than James, since Lebron is a tremendous two-way player who can both play and guard all five positions. Durant may have to luck into a good situation like Dirk and Allen did.

Davis is a 20/10 guy who looks like he could anchor an elite defense, and most people agree that he's no where near his prime yet. That's scary. I think it's easier to build around him because he can already effect the game so much without having to dominate the ball. As soon as the Pelicans start bringing in championship-caliber role-players instead of handing out huge deals to other teams' cast-offs, they'll surge in the standings.

[Blake]

Alright you did add the IMO at the end of that post.

But focusing on the actual argument at hand, I don't understand why you are so strongly opinionated on a matter which you admittedly don't know much about (by nature of not actually watching clippers games)

Strongly is such a strong word.

If I really cared about it, I'd do some extensive research to ease my mind so I could sleep at night.

As it is, if you guys don't want to provide evidence to the contrary, then I'm content to sit on my prediction that Griff will one day land wrong and blow a knee cap out into the 10th row of staples.

[Chinook]

Strongly is such a strong word.

If I really cared about it, I'd do some extensive research to ease my mind so I could sleep at night.

As it is, if you guys don't want to provide evidence to the contrary, then I'm content to sit on my prediction that Griff will one day land wrong and blow a knee cap out into the 10th row of staples.

Wait, that's the argument? Who the knows who's going to blow out a knee sometime in the future. It happens to players all the time, even ones that don't use their athleticism nearly as much as Griffin. I thought the debate was about whether Griffin could still be a high-end player without his leaping ability. That has a good deal of evidence to suggest he can.

[Blake]

Personally, I think Davis is the easiest to build around in a vacuum. Cleveland showed how hard it is to put a le team around James. The Heatles getting together is not something I think is repeatable, and it's crazy how much James had needed Wade and Bosh to step up. Don't get me wrong, Lebron is the best player to have ever lived. But he's still a small-forward. Durant will be in his post-prime in 10 years, which is perfectly acceptable. But he's even harder to build around than James, since Lebron is a tremendous two-way player who can both play and guard all five positions. Durant may have to luck into a good situation like Dirk and Allen did.

Davis is a 20/10 guy who looks like he could anchor an elite defense, and most people agree that he's no where near his prime yet. That's scary. I think it's easier to build around him because he can already effect the game so much without having to dominate the ball. As soon as the Pelicans start bringing in championship-caliber role-players instead of handing out huge deals to other teams' cast-offs, they'll surge in the standings.

Davis reminds me of Admiral. He'll definitely need a complimentary all star. Lebron has proven he doesn't.

I'd definitely rather have 5 years of potentially the greatest player of all time in his prime rather than 10 years of a guy whose ceiling is to be David Robinson.

In my opinion.

[Chinook]

Davis reminds me of Admiral. He'll definitely need a complimentary all star. Lebron has proven he doesn't.

I'd definitely rather have 5 years of potentially the greatest player of all time in his prime rather than 10 years of a guy whose ceiling is to be David Robinson.

In my opinion.

When in the world did Lebron prove he doesn't need a star? Was it when the Spurs swept him in 07? Because since then, he's had two All-Stars next to him, with both Wade and Bosh making huge plays to give him the rings. No question in my mind Lebron is the greatest player to ever play, but it's as clear to me that he can't get it done unless he has a superstar also playing at a high level. He's not like Duncan who won les with two completely different supporting casts and almost won another with a third.

[Blake]

Wait, that's the argument? Who the knows who's going to blow out a knee sometime in the future. It happens to players all the time, even ones that don't use their athleticism nearly as much as Griffin.

Sure, but the probability for blow out has to be higher for players that rely on their explosiveness in getting above the rim.

I thought the debate was about whether Griffin could still be a high-end player without his leaping ability. That has a good deal of evidence to suggest he can.

well what's he waiting for then?

[Blake]

When in the world did Lebron prove he doesn't need a star? Was it when the Spurs swept him in 07?

Yes

because since then, he's had two All-Stars next to him, with both Wade and Bosh making huge plays to give him the rings. No question in my mind Lebron is the greatest player to ever play, but it's as clear to me that he can't get it done unless he has a superstar also playing at a high level. He's not like Duncan who won les with two completely different supporting casts and almost won another with a third.

right, as soon as he got nice all star level players, he won the les.

It remains to be seen what Davis will do if he gets all stars next to him.

[Chinook]

Sure, but the probability for blow out has to be higher for players that rely on their explosiveness in getting above the rim.

Sure, but look at Duncan. He has pretty much the same injury Westbrook had, and he didn't use his athleticism like Russ does at all.

well what's he waiting for then?

He's not. That's what people have been saying. He dunked at a career-low rate this year, while his shooting range has expanded, to the point where he's only dunked 11 times out of 143 field-goal attempts in the playoffs. Despite moving further outside the paint, his TS% was also at a career high. His ball-handling is awesome for his position. He shot 44 percent from the corner three this season.

[Clipper Nation]

Sure, but look at Duncan. He has pretty much the same injury Westbrook had, and he didn't use his athleticism like Russ does at all.



He's not. That's what people have been saying. He dunked at a career-low rate this year, while his shooting range has expanded, to the point where he's only dunked 11 times out of 143 field-goal attempts in the playoffs. Despite moving further outside the paint, his TS% was also at a career high. His ball-handling is awesome for his position. He shot 44 percent from the corner three this season.

In before "but he dunks and jumps high = automatic injury!"

[Chinook]

Yes

Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller made it to the finals one year. Jason Kidd made it twice as the main guy. I don't think simply getting there is a sign that a player can really carry a team all the way.

right, as soon as he got nice all star level players, he won the les.

It remains to be seen what Davis will do if he gets all stars next to him.

In my opinion, a team simply can't hope that they can pull off a Miami and sign bring in two All-Stars to pair with James so that he can win a le, in the same away that a team can't just hope that another team will just gift them a HoFer like the Grizzlies did with Pau. I just don't see that as a viable strategy to build a team. With Davis, all he needs is an Indiana-style supporting cast, which the Pacers ac ulated without having any high picks. He doesn't need superstars next to him. He just needs an All-Star and some strong veteran role-players. That the Pelicans were one of the league's youngest teams was a great disservice to their best player.

[Blake]

Sure, but look at Duncan. He has pretty much the same injury Westbrook had, and he didn't use his athleticism like Russ does at all.

who's saying that players with little to no vertical won't get a blow out?

Westbrook getting injured just adds another to the list of purely explosive players going down.

He's not. That's what people have been saying. He dunked at a career-low rate this year, while his shooting range has expanded, to the point where he's only dunked 11 times out of 143 field-goal attempts in the playoffs. Despite moving further outside the paint, his TS% was also at a career high. His ball-handling is awesome for his position. He shot 44 percent from the corner three this season.

Thanks for providing some stats. Sounds like his probability of blow out is going down a bit.

.....but I still think it's a high enough probability that I'd rather go with Lebron.

[Blake]

In before "but he dunks and jumps high = automatic injury!"

ah, if I was going to say that you would have beat me to it. kudos.

[Blake]

Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller made it to the finals one year. Jason Kidd made it twice as the main guy. I don't think simply getting there is a sign that a player can really carry a team all the way.

AI put that team square on his back and dragged them to the Finals. One of the most impressive playoff feats I've ever seen in sports.

With Davis, all he needs is an Indiana-style supporting cast, which the Pacers ac ulated without having any high picks. He doesn't need superstars next to him. He just needs an All-Star and some strong veteran role-players. That the Pelicans were one of the league's youngest teams was a great disservice to their best player.

If Davis will probably command max money. If they bring in another all star, there's no way he'll be able to have a Pacer like team built around him.

[spurraider21]

Based on your logic Lebron is very prone for a blowout too. I guess you can scratch him off your list since he's a very explosive athlete

[Blake]

Based on your logic Lebron is very prone for a blowout too. I guess you can scratch him off your list since he's a very explosive athlete

Of course he could blow a knee just the same. Anyone can.

But LJ's game is so rounded, he doesn't have to rely on his explosiveness like Griff. LJ's outside shot and perimeter game is legit. He doesn't have to bang down low with big men nearly as often.

The probability of blowout still is way higher with Griff. Imo.

And I'd rather take an injury risk to LJ, even if it meant losing a year, than to take Davis.

[Aztecfan03]

Yes



right, as soon as he got nice all star level players, he won the les.

It remains to be seen what Davis will do if he gets all stars next to him.

Wow. you are all over the place.

[Chinook]

AI put that team square on his back and dragged them to the Finals. One of the most impressive playoff feats I've ever seen in sports.

Yeah, and he still wasn't a good building block for a le team.

If Davis will probably command max money. If they bring in another all star, there's no way he'll be able to have a Pacer like team built around him.

I dunno where you're getting that from. Davis is almost certainly going to get the same extension George has now (and doesn't deserve). Hibbert is making the max now. West is almost making the max for people in Davis' age bracket. Hill is massively overpaid. There's plenty of financial wiggle room for the Pelicans to add a Pacers-like team, especially considering they only needed to sign on member of their core. Indiana drafted George and Stephsn and traded for Hill. They signed West with their remaining cap space while everyone but Hibbert was still on their rookie deals. I can see no reason why the Pelicans couldn't do that no matter how much money Davis made.

[Blake]

Yeah, and he still wasn't a good building block for a le team.

ok.

Did anyone say he was or are you just thinking out loud?

I dunno where you're getting that from. Davis is almost certainly going to get the same extension George has now (and doesn't deserve). Hibbert is making the max now. West is almost making the max for people in Davis' age bracket. Hill is massively overpaid. There's plenty of financial wiggle room for the Pelicans to add a Pacers-like team, especially considering they only needed to sign on member of their core. Indiana drafted George and Stephsn and traded for Hill. They signed West with their remaining cap space while everyone but Hibbert was still on their rookie deals. I can see no reason why the Pelicans couldn't do that no matter how much money Davis made.

I guess if they can keep his salary somewhere in the $15 million range, it's possible.

But if he blows up like you say he will, I imagine somewhere in that ten year span, he'll get $20+ which begins to make it real rough to bring in and/or keep solid role players.

[spurraider21]

I guess if they can keep his salary somewhere in the $15 million range, it's possible.

its not a matter of if, its a matter of what contract he is eligible for

[Chinook]

ok.

Did anyone say he was or are you just thinking out loud?

I was refuting your point about James proving he's the superior franchise building block because he took the Cavs to the Finals in 07. Iverson had a similar run, and he wasn't a championship-level franchise cornerstone. James proved he could carry his team to a le when he actually did it. He never did so without multiple All-Stars. That's not to disparage him at all, but he's still not the same level of building block that Duncan and Shaq were, even though he's a better player.

I guess if they can keep his salary somewhere in the $15 million range, it's possible.

But if he blows up like you say he will, I imagine somewhere in that ten year span, he'll get $20+ which begins to make it real rough to bring in and/or keep solid role players.

Every superstar gets that much eventually. Look at what James makes. Durant will make that in two years when he reaches the final year of his current deal. Duncan was making it in 2005 and 2007 when the Spurs rang. But Davis won't make that much until the third year of his extension (five years from now), and even then, the cap increases means it will be as if he were making $17 Million this year. By definition, the max for a Rose extension is 30 percent of that year's salary cap (give or take a million or so for various reasons). So it's not like Davis can sign a five-year $120 Million deal and destroy his team's cap.

Team's build around max deals all the time. The Pacers will have two next year. The Heat essentially have three. Nene essentially has a max deal for the purposes of this discussion (he could get a good deal more due to his experience, but he's making more than max players like Hibbert are). The Thunder has two Rose-max deals and could have carried a third if they had amnestied Perkins. Duncan carried one of those old-CBA bloated max deals, and the team still was able to keep their two other stars and field a contender, while staying under the tax, which pretty much no contender does. The Celtics had two old-CBA max deals and Ray Allen's deal that would be a max under the new CBA.

I'm sorry, but it's silly to criticize Davis candidacy based on the possibility of him making too much money when each of the players we're discussing are also max players. This is especially true since Davis is likely going to make the least out of any of the other player mentioned here for most of the 10-year period we're discussing.

[Blake]

its not a matter of if, its a matter of what contract he is eligible for

Ah yeah, I forget they really put caps on individual player salaries.

He probably will be making somewhere around $18 in year six if I read the cba right.

[m>s]

Acting like Blake Griffin is the same monkeyballer that he was in 2010 is such a poor basketball take. I'm not a Griffin fan but he's pretty hard to stop when he gets the ball in the low post or the high post these days and has developed a few go to moves like that running jump hook across the paint. Not the 2nd coming of Hakeem but far from a scrub.



Dude even shoots a few threes these days apparently.

[Infinite_limit]

[Kidd K]

I'll go with Durant. You will have him 'til he's 35 and he will probably be in prime form until 33-34. So you're basically getting 8 prime years and 4-5 peak years out of Durant, with one or two fading years.

With LeBron, you're getting maybe one or two peak years, a few prime ones, and 5 old Bron years, years which he'd probably leave anyway.

Davis is worse than both atm and I won't believe he'll be better 'til I see it. I don't think he will surpass either player until they age out. You will get more cash and better shots at les with the SFs.

Blake you ain't winning with, but you can market the out of him. I prefer winning so he's my last choice tbh