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this is trueKawhi's D overrated, okTake him off the team and look how bad our d takes a hit. Some people.
You're underestimating the difficulty of a smaller man having to guard a bigger man in the post. MWP is a PF essentially, and he was scoring at lot at the time. Even if he wasn't in Kobe's league offensively, that's not an easy assignment, especially since Bryant is more of a jump-shooter.
In any event, T's point was off-base. In the RS, the Spurs rarely cross-matched with small guards for more than a short period of time. Kawhi's numbers aren't hurt because he played against quick players. Pop's only been cross-matching religiously in the playoffs, and it's not like Leonard was exemplary in his assignments.
this is trueKawhi's D overrated, ok
Manu's going to play no matter what. The problem (when it's actually a problem) is that Pop seems keen to play Beli or Mills in front of Green, especially if Danny makes a mistake. I really think Pop needs to go five-deep in the perimeter rotation when the chips are down. Manu needs to play unless he's absolutely throwing the game away. After that, Pop needs to put a shooter and a defender next to him. If he wants some more play-making, he can try Beli out there. If he wants more speed, he can put Mills in. But for all intents and purposes, Green should be the defensive backup PG against OKC or LAC. That plays to Green's strengths while also helping to fix the second units greatest weakness.
Here's a question: when OKC plays Jackson/Westbrook/Durant together at the same time, who should be guarding Jackson? Assuming Kawhi guards Durant and Green gets Westbrook.
Leonard is the best defender in our team, however the idea that he's our best defender in virtually every perimeter and even stretch 4's is what makes him overrated. Pop for the most part believes in this, a lot of analyst believes in this and a lot of spurs fans. The reality is that, Green defends quicker 1's and 2's better than Leonard, and even at times Boris does a better job at guarding strong SF's ( I thought Diaw did a better job than Leonard guarding Lebron last year)
At the same time, His reputation of being the best defender in the team has made him super underrated on the offensive end. He's one of the most efficient scorer in the league, can create shots for himself, a solid passer, Can run pick and rolls..But his role in this team doesn't allow him to do the latter, sadly.
The way I see it there's not an answer that works all the time. I think Green should get the nod if Belli is being attacked and getting torched like in the first round, where that was a very specific attack vector for the Mavs. We discussed some of this already, but the biggest vulnerability last seasons' 2nd unit had, IMO, is the fact that Manu was pretty much the head of the snake. I think the evolution of Mills, the improvement of Diaw and the mid-long range of Beli are key in actually having a 2nd unit not so dependent on Manu for offense. Even if Green had to play because of the scenario described above, his value would be diminished, and I can only see a few areas where he would actually help the offense of the 2nd unit in a meaningful way (probably playing a 4-down with Diaw in the post, and certain hammer plays out of timeouts). You don't really even need to put a tall guy on him to neutralize his 3 point shooting, and there would be nothing an opposing coach would want more than Danny trying to dribble a basketball. The bench biggest goal is actually to keep up with scoring. A lot of times, they'll still be playing against a good chunk of the other team's starters (ie: OKC loves to play Durant with the bench, Miami does the same with Lebron). Green being a solid defender in the 2nd unit doesn't really make the team a better defensive unit overall. Mills can still be exploited, so can an aging Manu, Diaw is no shot-blocker or rim protector. We're going to be at a disadvantage even if Green can check a guy or two. Pop is fairly aware of this, and I'm pretty sure it's the reason why scoring is the biggest goal when that unit is out there. They're just buying minutes for our starters (+Manu) to step back into the court and resume the solid defensive play.
Exactly. A lot of people have this notion that Kawhi should just guard whoever the #1 player on the other team is, regardless of the type of player it may be. People seem to have this mindset of "Oh, just stick Kawhi on him and we'll be fine". Sticking Kawhi on guys like Westbrook and Lillard typically isn't a good idea; Green is much better suited for those jobs. However on guys like LeBron, Durant, and Melo, Kawhi typically excels.
Parker should guard Westbrook. As I said before, stopping Russ is more about a team committing to force him to take jumpers more than it is about an individual player stopping him. Westbrook is a bigger, stronger Ellis who should be gameplanned for the same way.
Agree with most of this. Kawhi is underrated offensively because people see him as a defensive stopper in the Bowen mold. Leonard is worlds better now offensively than Bowen ever was. Green is a more accurate comparison to Bowen than Leonard on both sides of the ball, but people will just not bring themselves to believe it because they have an over-inflated memory of Bowen and hold Green's mistakes against him. Obviously, Bruce was still the superior defender, but it was not by the margin people think, and with Green being a much more dynamic shooter, their overall impacts are similar. It's just unfair to box Kawhi into the debate at all.
I think you're thinking too intelligently about this, no offense. Against OKC, the biggest goal is to stop their penetration. Stopping Jackson kills the Thunder's second unit. Obviously, we're talking about the short gaps when Durant is not playing, since that's not really a traditional bench match for either team. Leonard will still be there, and so would Parker for good chunks of time. It's even worse against LAC since Collison is guardable by Mills despite Darren's blitz tonight. I don't think either team, especially not the Thunder, are going to have the strategy to attack Mills or Beli with whomever's guarding them. Their usual scorers have to score no matter what, and there really isn't a lot of variety in that.
So let's just focus on the short periods of time where the Spurs full bench would be in the game. I honestly don't see a huge difference between Mills' game and Green's game when he feel he has the green light. They take about the same shots with the same general level of success (and same streakiness). Yes, Patty is a gunner, Neal with jets. But Green can absolutely be a legitimate offensive piece. The great thing about the second unit is that Manu makes more plays from the perimeter than Tony does. That allows Green to come off more screens (which is what Mills already does) and make cuts, since he doesn't have to worry about interfering with a drive. Obviously, Danny can spot up as well as Mills can. You're right that we have talked about this before, so you should know which suggestion I'd make to get more offense out of Green.
If anything, I see Beli's game as the harder one to replace, since Marco hits more shots on the move (which as you know means he has a larger window to release the ball since he doesn't have to set his feet first) and is more dynamic inside the arch than either Mills or Green. I like Marco in transition more than Mills as well. And even though Beli sucks on defense, I think he's a better option to defend OKC's least-threatening perimeter player than Mills. Butler at least would not be able to shoot over Beli, and he should be able to avoid having Fisher back him down.
Agree with some things, disagree on others. I agree that neither of those teams would actively try to exploit them. I also suspect Pop will actually match up differently than it did during the regular season against that unit. This is just my guess, but I think we'll see the following pairings on defense: Mills on Fisher, Beli on Butler and Manu on Reggie. (there are reasons for this, Jackson I'll touch in a minute, but the rest it's kinda long to put in one post, and I might just be wrong about the reasoning anyways). While I don't completely disagree that stopping Jackson's penetration does a lot of damage to their second unit, I also think it's much more complex than that. Both Adams and Collison will set great (read: moving) screens, and so the value of having a good one on one defender is somewhat diminished. Recovery is tough against such a guy, and I think what Pop fears the most isn't necessarily Reggie finishing every play (a la Monta), but the actual kickout and the 3 pointers. If you've seen the series against Memphis, it was really the 3 point shooter (Butler specifically, but it can be Fisher too), that amped up their bench output (except for one game where Reggie went off, but it should be noted Reggie ended up playing with the starters too in that game, in place of sefolosha).
I do see a pretty big difference, and that is that Mills can dribble around a screen and get off a shot. He might make or miss, but Danny cannot reliably do that. As a matter of fact, the moment Danny puts the ball on the floor to go around a screen is the moment you trap him/crowd him and that's the end of that. Mills is simply smaller, faster, and can actually dribble quicker. Faster first step, and simply much more comfortable with his shot from anywhere, long ball or mid-range. Making a concerted effort to trap Patty is doable too, but I think it's more difficult because of foot speed and much better handles.
Marco also has better court vision. But Butler is the perfect guy to hide him on defense. Butler will camp in the corner, and will only get free using screens from bigs. But he's really a release valve when the offense stagnates. As long as Belli is focused on not leaving him alone (and in general he's done that well against Batum), Butler isn't going to take on him one on one.
Put Splitter on Durant tbh
Also passingI know Chinook has certain Green Colored Glasses (tm), but Kawhi simply has the bigger impact offensively, besides a very good defensive focus. While both still have work to do in various areas offensively, Kawhi simply has more weapons to take on the opposition 1 on 1 if needed, something Danny doesn't really have on a consistent basis. This all plays a role even on defense, as we've seen in the first round series, where a solid coach like Carlisle could simply use Danny to hide and rest talented offensive players that are mediocre on defense (see: Calderon). Part of the defensive work includes making the other team's best offensive players work hard on the defensive end. Kawhi can simply make you pay for that: his post game is fairly good, and he has a fairly solid mid-range jumper off a curl or screen, areas where Danny still need to improve.
Kawhi has some offensive improvements to make on his own, like better footwork, better finishing around the rim, keep working on his shot (including freebies), and more trust in his offensive game and less hesitation, but overall, he's ahead in the development curve than Danny (at least on that side of the court).
Green is an excellent on ball defender, but his off ball D is still infuriating. I don't have any advanced metrics, but from what I've seen he still helps needlessly, often one pass away, and bites on every single pump fake.
Ahem, isn't this why the Spurs acquired Daye?
My case wasn't as much Kawhi has to guard the superior players on a nightly basis but that Kawhi is guarding a lot more out of position when compared to Danny.
The thing about Kawhi's defense that people seem to always exclude, is that he almost never guards a guy in a true one-on-one situation. Teams always come to screen him. Nobody ever tries to just take Kawhi to the basket by making a move and blowing by him. Once they come to set a screen it is no longer man-to-man defense it becomes team defense in a two-on-two situation.
Teams do this because that way Kawhi can be accounted for more easily on defense. They don't have to worry about him playing the passing lanes as much or coming down to strip at the ball from the ball handler.
It's hard to say he is overrated as a one-on-one defender when he is actually only put in that situation maybe once a game, and when he is he often get's a steal, forces a pickup, or forces his man to give up the ball.
My take on two things here.
Guarding Durant is alot like guarding earlier years Dirk, you don't have to be super tall, you don't have to be super fast, you do have to body him up and face guard him. Don't let him jump into or through you at the start of his fade away jumper. He will get his points make him take alot of inefficient shots to do it. On that point I really think Bellinelli, and Manu can both be useful against him not for long as primary defenders but to body him up with a hard foul on the floor on switches, both are also long enough to stay in his face and cut passing lanes if foul trouble happens for a game on either green or leonard.
The second point is that taking Durrant out of the game isn't and never has been the key to beating the Thunder, its making Westbrook fall in love with being a jumpshooter/scorer and taking hard shots while not letting one of their secondary players go off. Spurs are good at the first but have trouble with the second.
I know what you meant. Nathan went on that other line of reasoning.
I disagree with you, though, for three reasons: First, I don't think it's fair to claim Leonard guarding two-guards is a mismatch without thinking Green guarding small-forwards is one. Green had to guard bigger players very often, while most of Kawhi's cross-matches were player who are about his size. Take this series for example. Who has the bigger mismatch: Leonard guarding Matthews or Green guarding Batum? I'd say Green does. Also, the Spurs didn't really cross-match all that much during the regular season.
Second, even if that were the case, Green played enough games where he had to guard in mismatches for that not to be an excuse for Leonard. Green held opposing SFs to a PER of 9 when he was playing out of position. That's hard to ignore.
Third, Green also had superior numbers for team defense. That takes the individual match-ups out of the conversation and focuses on impact while on the floor.
I still think you're giving OKC too much credit for play-calling. Your right that their bigs set great screens. But so long as the Spurs bigs hedge, the driving lanes should not be open. That may leave open the roll man, but that's easier to contain. I doubt OKC can continuously make the Spurs scramble like Dallas did. If the PnR isn't going, I think the Thunder would run more iso plays, which they did often in the regular season with Jackson (although that may have been to Westbrook being out). I think Manu could do a good job on Jackson in the PnR, since he's a smart defender. But I don't like him one-on-one.
They have different skill-sets, but I think the biggest difference to their play styles is who they play with. Pop actually calls plays for Mills when he's out there with the second unit. That and transition are the two biggest ways that Pop makes use of Patty's speed. Pop almost never makes use of Green's size advantage (when he has it) or the skills Danny has from playing PF in college. We see them every so often, like in Game Six of the Dallas series where Danny just kept going inside against Ellis. Or Game Four of last year's WCSF where Green kept using his height advantage over Curry around the rim. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the offense needs to go toward Green post-ups. But I think overall, both Green and Mills have their pluses and minuses on offense.I do see a pretty big difference, and that is that Mills can dribble around a screen and get off a shot. He might make or miss, but Danny cannot reliably do that. As a matter of fact, the moment Danny puts the ball on the floor to go around a screen is the moment you trap him/crowd him and that's the end of that. Mills is simply smaller, faster, and can actually dribble quicker. Faster first step, and simply much more comfortable with his shot from anywhere, long ball or mid-range. Making a concerted effort to trap Patty is doable too, but I think it's more difficult because of foot speed and much better handles.
Agreed. That's a big reason why I think a Green/Ginobili/Belinelli small group would work well against a Jackson/Fisher/Butler group.Marco also has better court vision. But Butler is the perfect guy to hide him on defense. Butler will camp in the corner, and will only get free using screens from bigs. But he's really a release valve when the offense stagnates. As long as Belli is focused on not leaving him alone (and in general he's done that well against Batum), Butler isn't going to take on him one on one.
I would have to disagree with this. If it truly were ignored, the term "superstar call" would never have been coined.
Our second unit bigs are just not that good defending the P&R... but again, I'm not that concerned about Reggie's penetration per-se, just more about what he opens up for them.
FWIW, I have Green as the designated Westbrook defender. Just like Kawhi will probably try to match minutes with Durant. What that does is it hides Tony in Thabo, which might eventually cause Brooks to start Reggie instead of Thabo (and opens a completely different can of worms). I guess we'll address that when we get there
Bonner = Durant's Kryptonite, tbh.
Jamal Crawford or Joe Crawford? lol. Both can kill us tbh
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