Psychology of the Game/ Why havent we attracted top free Agents?

[Mel_13]

Spurs on numerous occassions have forgone the opportunity to pay luxury tax, this seems to be pretty well understood. In order to do number two, I would need to know the context of your definition of "significant" free agents as my thoughts may differ. I think the question truly is, list all of the players the Spurs have been linked to, then sort into categories of "likely" vs "completely fabricated", and then review the reasons.

They've been just below or just above the tax line in almost every year for the last decade. Going that last bit over the tax, or going well over the tax, does not change the amount available to pursue free agents.

For the second one, use any definition you like. Just keep to your own parameters (Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA.) If it's happened so often, you should have no problem providing a few examples.

[Johnny RIngo]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing ing Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

[Johnny RIngo]

Says a lot that we made a Finals run last year and the best player we could attract was that Italian piece of (who actually makes our team worse when he plays)

[xmas1997]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing ing Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

I figured the same thing after AK47 went to the Nets for less money.

[Mel_13]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing ing Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

Perfect example. That summer the Spurs had the MLE (5yrs/32M). Maggette signed with GS for 5yrs/50M.

[DMC]

Like most things, it's many factors. Spurs have had the same money as other teams when it comes to ability to spend, but willingness to spend has not always been there.

Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA. They don't like the city, it's a small market with limited opportunity for additional endorsements/money making & they would be playing 4th fiddle at best. Then you factor in the defense/playing for Pop and that's not everyone's cup of team. This is just a job for many and while they like to win, it's not at the top of the list. Having fun, making money and getting the spotlight is important for most and SA is not the place for that overall.

Intentional or not, I'm going to steal that one.

[DPG21920]

While your first part is true (no cap space), the use of exceptions, namely the MLE in years where they didn't pay taxes is one example of willingness. That's why I asked you to define "significant". They haven't been spurned by top dollar FA's because they haven't had top dollar cap space. But in the exceptions pool or limited cap space pool, SA has not been a hot bed for attracting players. Spurs in Duncan's early years ('99 - 2003) had cap space on a decently regular basis. With regards to the Luxury Tax, Spurs have only paid that 5 times in their history and it adds up to a very small total amount overall (outside of 2009 IIRC where they paid the most LT). That is the "willingness" I was referring to.

What I also want to understand is what you are trying to argue: Are you arguing that FA's do not spurn SA? Are you trying to say that the Spurs have pretty freely spent about as much as other top contenders/FA destinations? Both?

But to name a few players: Jason Kidd, Granger, AK47, Caron Butler, Karl Malone (rumors about him in 2004), Might be able to throw Stephen Jackson in there (I think he was a FA when they made him an offer that led to him signing with ATL vs locking him up).

You can argue the severity of those FA, but unless you are trying to argue that FA's generally like to play SA and SA has had success with FA's, it seems pretty clear that FA is a struggle for SA. You can argue that they didn't have max cap space or "equal money" (which I disagree when they had the full MLE many times and elected to either not use or spread out) or you could argue they do what they do because they know it's difficult to land FA's. Its tough.

[DPG21920]

Intentional or not, I'm going to steal that one.

It was not intentional but I noticed it and then elected not to fix it because I liked it. So it was intentionally unedited.

[Mel_13]

While your first part is true (no cap space), the use of exceptions, namely the MLE in years where they didn't pay taxes is one example of willingness. That's why I asked you to define "significant". They haven't been spurned by top dollar FA's because they haven't had top dollar cap space. But in the exceptions pool or limited cap space pool, SA has not been a hot bed for attracting players. Spurs in Duncan's early years ('99 - 2003) had cap space on a decently regular basis. With regards to the Luxury Tax, Spurs have only paid that 5 times in their history and it adds up to a very small total amount overall (outside of 2009 IIRC where they paid the most LT). That is the "willingness" I was referring to.

What I also want to understand is what you are trying to argue: Are you arguing that FA's do not spurn SA? Are you trying to say that the Spurs have pretty freely spent about as much as other top contenders/FA destinations? Both?

But to name a few players: Jason Kidd, Granger, AK47, Caron Butler, Karl Malone (rumors about him in 2004), Might be able to throw Stephen Jackson in there (I think he was a FA when they made him an offer that led to him signing with ATL vs locking him up).

You can argue the severity of those FA, but unless you are trying to argue that FA's generally like to play SA and SA has had success with FA's, it seems pretty clear that FA is a struggle for SA. You can argue that they didn't have max cap space or "equal money" (which I disagree when they had the full MLE many times and elected to either not use or spread out) or you could argue they do what they do because they know it's difficult to land FA's. Its tough.

I was responding to your post. Specifically: "Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA"

IMO, that greatly oversimplifies and overstates the reality and I don't believe can be supported by reference to available facts.

[DPG21920]

Ok, so, even if you want to focus on that narrow sentence: my list is there.

[Mel_13]

Ok, so, even if you want to focus on that narrow sentence: my list is there.

That's why I quoted it in my original question to you.

As with many of our debates, this one is descending into the rabbit hole, but I'll bite.

Kidd: My original question to you asked for examples after Kidd in 2003.

Malone: That's one.

Butler and Granger: I don't consider either of those significant, although I suppose it's debatable. At any rate, Butler signed with OKC for more than the Spurs or the Heat were able to offer.

AK47: That was a weird, possibly illegal, situation. He opted out of 10M. Couldn't agree with any team in the NBA, then signs for 3M with the Russian billionaire.

Jack: The Spurs offered a huge raise over his previous deal. His agent wanted much more and wouldn't return Pop's calls or make a counter proposal. The Spurs traded for Hedo and withdrew their offer. Jackson couldn't get his price from any team in the NBA and signed the one year deal in Atlanta.

[Johnny RIngo]

That's why I quoted it in my original question to you.

As with many of our debates, this one is descending into the rabbit hole, but I'll bite.

Kidd: My original question to you asked for examples after Kidd in 2003.

Malone: That's one.

Butler and Granger: I don't consider either of those significant, although I suppose it's debatable. At any rate, Butler signed with OKC for more than the Spurs or the Heat were able to offer.

AK47: That was a weird, possibly illegal, situation. He opted out of 10M. Couldn't agree with any team in the NBA, then signs for 3M with the Russian billionaire.

Jack: The Spurs offered a huge raise over his previous deal. His agent wanted much more and wouldn't return Pop's calls or make a counter proposal. The Spurs traded for Hedo and withdrew their offer. Jackson couldn't get his price from any team in the NBA and signed the one year deal in Atlanta.

IIRC, Spurs also went after Jermaine O'Neal and Webber during the early 2000s.

[BackHome]

Everyone knows playing for Pop is no joke and that we run a system and if you don't like it well you won't get any playing time. Also for a single guy why would you come to SA vs. Miami, Cali, etc...as I said before player listen to Charles.

[Mel_13]

IIRC, Spurs also went after Jermaine O'Neal and Webber during the early 2000s.

They made overtures to O'Neal in the same summer (2003) that they pursued Kidd.

I don't believe that they ever pursued Webber in free agency, although there are reports that they considered trading Robinson for him.

[Mel_13]

Interesting discussion, but it's time to head out for the arena.

[DPG21920]

Interesting discussion, but it's time to head out for the arena.

Get it!

[Vito Corleone]

Interesting tidbit I learned from a real estate broker I know.

He attended a forum put on by the city, right now the Growth in San Antonio projects the city to be the 5th largest city in America by 2025. It also projects the San Antonio/ Austin markets to merge into one of the top 6 markets in the country surpassing places like The San Francisco Bay area, and Philadelphia and Boston.

As far as small markets go, this area will not be small for much longer.

[xmas1997]

Interesting tidbit I learned from a real estate broker I know.

He attended a forum put on by the city, right now the Growth in San Antonio projects the city to be the 5th largest city in America by 2025. It also projects the San Antonio/ Austin markets to merge into one of the top 6 markets in the country surpassing places like The San Francisco Bay area, and Philadelphia and Boston.

As far as small markets go, this area will not be small for much longer.

Good, then maybe we can get MLB and NFL teams.
I've been saying this for the last twenty years, and that we should build an international airport halfway between the two cities.

[DMC]

It was not intentional but I noticed it and then elected not to fix it because I liked it. So it was intentionally unedited.

You need to tweet that so you own it.

[davidbowie]

San Antonio is boring. The end.