Winning regular season MVP is a popularity contest. Even when he won them there were people saying he didn't deserve it.
Manu is clearly the third best SG after Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade in the post-Jordan era. He has just been better than the likes of McGrady, Carter, Pierce (when he played SG), Johnson etc.
TP has on the other hand had much more difficult compe ion in the PG department. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Miller & Rondo round out his compe ion. And I think he can be around fourth-fifth among them.
Manu 4th best SG, behind Kobe, Iverson and Wade.
Tony 2nd behind Kidd
You guys have convinced me: the best PG in the post-Jordan era is Derek Fisher.
If I were picking the best point guard it would be LJ. If I were picking the best shooting guard it would be LJ. His ability to play both sides of the ball at both positions has been proven. Go ahead and argue that he's a forward all you want. I agree with most of the board that Manu and Tony are both very near to top, though I only see one mention of Billups.
These comparisons are very difficult and probably useless ultimately because the Spurs players are in a system unique to themselves.
In Parker's case, his assists have been held down for several reasons over his career:
In the early years, the only job of the pg was to bring the ball up the court and give it to Tim, who would then dribble the ball continually in the low post until all the
Spurs players had cleared to the other side of the court where they would stand waiting for Tim to shoot.
In the post-Dominant Duncan years, the 'system' has replaced the low-post focus so that a motion offense is initiated leading to multiple passes from any player, and
the 'hockey assist' being the more typical play for any Spur. Even during the 'system' years, the Spurs offense has essentially been initiated by the first pass in the
possession going from Parker to Duncan, who then begins the offense based on what he sees.
In the case of Manu, when he got here Pop tried to put him in the Spurs' system and he refused to go, because he was already successful in other places doing things 'his way'. Unlike Parker and (less so) Duncan, Manu arrived as a fully developed talent, and with a skill set far superior to most shooting guards in the NBA. His years in the starting line-up were always difficult because the offense was really not set up for three shooters, and because the original (and occasionally only)
play in most of the offensive sets was a two-way game with Duncan and Parker. Those were also the days when we had a pathetic bench. So, putting Manu on the bench to lead the second unit gave them the best ball handler on the team, and a guy who could (and did) create plays for himself and for others.
Parker (other than his speed) is 1000% a product of Pop's development. Duncan, whose initial talent and skill level were far superior to those of most rookies, was still developed under Pop.
Manu arrived and has continued as a complete package. The challenge for Pop with Manu was trying figure out how to use those monstrous talents and skills within a game plan that maximized their usefulness (and still kept Duncan as a major focus of the team).
Each of the Spurs' big three has had to sacrifice individual stats to the betterment of the team's success. That is why the comparisons between our guards and others during the post Jordan era are useless, imo.
for me it's fair
Manu is a in my opinion top 3 talent of the decade (all positions include)_He is 120% in excellence but also 120% in mediocrity
He has a unorthodox game and 100% of cases attempt a pass who is either 50% assist of the year or 50% pass intercepted while his teammates wouldn't try that pass, he shoot in first-intent
for me he is the real HERO-Baller (not pejorative in my mind) but he can take the rebound, take the steal or made the shoot / dunk that will change the momentum and lifted the crowd
Pop said himself:
"I went from trading him on the spot to wanting to cook him breakfast tomorrow. That's the truth."
He's uncontrollable, plays without follow the system, and follow his instinct sometimes & when the shots (or other things) are made it's great, when they doesn't it's awful
But I am never judge a player about % FG it's the most alternative thing of the game
sometimes shoot just doesn't go in(His Airness himself or Kobe has that kind of game sometimes & even in Finals). And it's the same cases for every player of the league TP or Danny .....
Parker was far from having the qualities of a true PG when he arrived in the league
Since 2008/2009 he is one of them (and they're rarely)
He is still the most underapprecated player of all the league(maybe the entire world if I exaggerate)
One reason is that it is completely atypical PG
He's not a scoring first, he mades less than 20 ppg. Curry, Westbrook, Irving are close to 25 ppg
He's not a passing first he doesn't give 9/10 apg. like CP3 or Rondo did
He attacks the rim but can't dunk as dROSE or Westbrook, He doesn't shoot 3s
But all league PG's say that he's the most difficult one to defend
How is this possible?
He's a great mix between basketball FIBA & NBA,he's coach's player
but also a system PG (uncommon one) who doesn't have a shoot in first part of his career and has developed a mid-distance shoot (10-20 feet) as a new weapon later, his court vision is also better
His decision making is better year after year. Here he's criticized because his ego but you know many greats who doesn't have ego
If he improves over 30 years old it's precisely because the ego and self-confidence he has
For him only the sky is the limit(metaphore), and he has a huge stomach and will always hunger for victories
He has ego but he's not egoistic. If he was he will be never friends with babac,Timmy and Manu
& Be trade long time ago
I think he deserves to retired in Spurs uniform too
When it comes to all time great's only three things matter, MVP, FMVP and rings.
Nash is clearly ahead of Parker. Two MVP's and his playing style would eventually be adopted by Pop and turn into the Spurs tiki-taka game of today. He was also cheated out of a ring in 2007 vs Spurs with Tim Donaghy in game 3 and Robert Horry hip check in game 4.
I can not rank Kidd and Paul ahead of Parker because they simply never won any individual awards or rings. 4 rings and FMVP pushes Parker over both IMO. While Parker doesn't produce huge stats he is on a far more balanced team and he is the heart of the Spurs offense of last 3 successful seasons. He also attract the opponent's best defenders (LeBron) and drains their stamina and free up everyone else.
So Magic > Nash > Parker > anyone else for me in the history of PG's. You can say Parker's success is right place, right time, but you can say that about most other hall of famer's as well. I have to take 4 rings + 1 FMVP over . . . nothing's.
Manu is the hardest to rate. He has 4 rings but because of his off the bench sacrifice, he has zero individual awards. He is the greatest six man to ever play the game and when he was the leader of a team, he led Argentina over two dream team's in 2002 and 2004, including the first ever defeat of a full NBA squad. I can not rate him ahead of Jordan/Kobe/Wade/AI as I don't think his style of play and body can carry a team through 82 games and post season as the primary option. But against anyone else? He compares favorably IMO.
I agree with you with Parker but not Ginobili, you go out and say that Ginobili cannot take the toll on his body blah blah... while is clearlly that Wade and Iverson couldnŽt either, Ginobili has kept his game and improved in some areas while both Iverson and Wade rapiddly regressed. For me Ginobili at his peak is comparable to Wade and GinobiliŽs peak was longer as wade had a serious injury the next year after the championship.
Iverson is on another level and iŽd rank him ahead of wade both in terms of capacity to lead a team and durability but then again... no rings.
So for me is Kobe, Manu, Wade, Iverson.. and iŽd really put Iverson as a PG some times in his career.
To recap, you cannot put up Manu being "not durable" when the guy is playing at 37 at a very high level. And then go and say that Wade (Would be destroyed by 32 y/o Manu and is playing the same minutes as Manu at 32) and Iverson (his level also dropped significantly at 32 y/o and he played only 6 years in the PO).
Also, total games played:
Iverson 914 RS 71 PO 985 Total games played (Started playing at 21 retired at 34) 14 seasons 70.35 games per season.
International Compe ion: 2003 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2004 Olympics 8 games. Total international games 18. (1,28 int. games per year)
Wade 719 RS 152 PO 861 Total games played (Started playing at 22 is 32 and still playing) 11 seasons 78,27 games per season.
International Compe ion: 2004 Olympics 8 games, 2006 FIBA WC 9 games, 2009 Olympics 8 games. Total international games 25. (2,27 int. games per year)
Ginobili 795 RS 180 PO 975 Total games played (Started playing at 25 still playing at 36) 12 seasons 81,25 games per season.
International Compe ion (only the compe ions he endured during his NBA career): 2003 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2004 Olympics 8 games, 2006 FIBA WC 9 games, 2008 Olympics 8 games, 2011 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2012 Olympics 8 games. Total international games (NBA-Years) 53. (4.4 int games per year).
Jordan retired in 2003.
For combined seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; from 2003-04 to 2013-14; played G; sorted by descending Win Shares.
1) Chris Paul
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chauncey Billups
5) Steve Nash
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Jason Terry
I don't count Iverson because he didn't play high lvl since 2008-2009, and he stopped playing the NBA at 34 years old to play in Europe
FWIW, Parker led France to International success w/o Pop, TD, Manu
True, but Parker is a very skilled and confident player now. I doubt he would have been this skilled, confident and successful had he joined any franchise other than the one with Pop and Duncan.
Don't make me go postal saying "Nash was cheated out of a championship in 2007. That series was a 4-2 Spurs win. And the Spurs beat the Suns year after year in the playoffs. Why are we supposed to believe 2007 wax any different? If the Suns really were better than Spurs they woul have won that series. Do you think the Heat would have beat the Spurs this part year if Duncan and Parker were suspended for 1 game? Of course not. The better team wins in a 7 game series.
when speaking of skills and confidence and success you tend to forget how young parker was when he joined the spurs (19) was already playin pro bball in france at 17, already won the young euro championchip and was designated mvp of the tournament,not to forget that after 5 games with the spurs he became the youngest starting 5 pg in nba history.
you are right it's pretty obvious the kid had no skills and no confidence.
Oh, come on, Nash bleeding in the first decided what was a completely open game. The Suns couldn't make a single FG while him on the bench (five misses in the last minute). That was in Phoenix. The fifth game, for which Diaw and Stoudamire got suspended, was also in Phoenix, and they entered it with a home-court advantage.
They were very compe ive during the series. This has anything to do with this year's finals.
I'm not saying the Spurs wouldn't have won, but there's a clear uncertainty there. Not to take anything from the Spurs, because almost every single champion enjoys some breaks. But to think that always the best team wins no matter what is a bit naive IMO.
Of course, the Suns were much more compe ive than any other playoff team not named the Spurs that year.
Parker is unbelievably underrated even in this forum. He has gone up against the likes of JKidd, CP3, Nash, Westbrook, DWilliams and hardly ever (although eventually) has been outplayed on BOTH ENDS of the floor by any of them. Forget the stats, just think of the actual match up and you will see how well has Parker played over the years, not to mention the many times he has come up big for this team, like the fantastic defense on Rip Hamilton to prevent a last-second loss, the MANY clutch shots he has made to prevent runs from the other team, with going 7-8 on the 4th with the Heat being the latter.
Last edited by vanvannen; 06-24-2014 at 07:41 AM.
ontheraise
Join Date 03-26-2012
I don't tend to forget anything, Mr. Snarky Spurs Fan Since 2012. I was watching all the Spurs game back then. We had PGs, and Pop trusted Parker enough to let him play, since we had the corpse of Terry Porter and his backup Antonio Daniels "I start fights at Homecourt America" as the other options that year.
so i became a spurs fan the day I sign-in spurstalk LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL for your info i watch the spurs for nearly 15years considering i'm 28 and not us citizen i can say proudly take all your little consideration for my fandom and shove it up your ass the hardest way possible... you're welcom
lol and a classy NASF at thatso i became a spurs fan the day I sign-in spurstalk LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL for your info i watch the spurs for nearly 15years considering i'm 28 and not us citizen i can say proudly take all your little consideration for my fandom and shove it up your ass the hardest way possible... you're welcom
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