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Ginobili is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and John Stockton, right? Heck, Belinelli is better than those three.
Exactly my point. You have to evaluate them in their cir stances, to be able to read their achievements. Pele spent his whole prime in Brazil and it doesn't hurt his legacy one bit, since the Brazilian league was super strong back then, as they weren't coming in bunches to Europe like in the last three decades. And of course, his playing in the WCs is crucial to this historical stature.
Football is more complicated than basketball when evaluating all-time careers for the very top players: there's not a 60+-year-old NBA where pretty much every top player competes year after year (saving for the ABA days). In football the most important compe ion is played every four years and is only 7-games long at maximum, and the current format of the Champions League is relatively recent: before 1991 only the teams that had won their domestic league in the previous season took part. Not to mention that these championships are decided in do-or-die games, as oppossed to the 7-games series you see in the NBA that tend to secure the reward to the best teams.
All in all, you won't find any current ranking where Messi is not, at least, an all-time top-10 football player. And you won't find any single ranking where Ginobili is a top-50 basketball player. What else there is to discuss?
Ginobili is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and John Stockton, right? Heck, Belinelli is better than those three.
Malone, Barkley, Bellinelli, who else?? for the record I get your point, but even if Manu may not be a top 50 player in his sport, his achievments, for now, are more impressive than Messiīs, and those achievments did have him as a center piece.
Itīs like if Lebron keep puting monster numbers in the regular season but never won a le, he wouldn be considered the best player no matter the statistics.
Maradona never won a copa america, or a champions league, he doesnīt have any scoring record, not even in th 86 WC, but few people will not consider him the greatest athlete of Argentina. That is my point, to be the greatest you need to do impossible things, like winning a wc almost by yourself, or defeat the richest clubs in Italy with the Napoli.
And Manu also has done pretty legendary stuff.
Things will change if Messi wins 3 more games with the team he is playing.
Pele won three WC (in 62 was injured in the semifinals) and 2 world club (62 and 63) and he played Brazil 4 cups (58-62-66-70) the only one who did not win was when he was injured in the second game (66), all Brazilian players playing in our own country, where the world's best football was played.
As important and crucial as Manu was, Duncan was the centerpiece of those rings. The Olympic Games is the world's top FIBA compe ion but it's not the world's top basketball compe ion. LeBron plays in a yearly compe ion, unlike what happens with the WC. And do you really think Cruyff is not going to be considered anymore the best Dutch player ever if the Netherlands win the WC this year?
It doesn't matter that Maradona never won a Champions League, it also doesn't hurt him much. Of course not in Argentina, but also worldwide. Because people do take into account the cir stances and the fact that he played for Napoli.
Maradona is GOD is Argentina. It's not only how good he was (top-3 all-time at least). Messi can win three World Championships and still he would never reach Maradona's status in his home country. And it's not like Argentina had never won a World Championship before 1986 (just 8 years before), but beating England after the Malvinas war the way he did it in his way to the le, it's just impossible to match in the heart of that country.
Listen, many dudes make impossible things in marginal compe ions. You have to put everything in perspective. Argentina winning an Olympic gold in basketball was amazing, Ginobili is a hero, and all that, but it doesn't put him anywhere near Messi when we talk about all-time around-the-world status.
Let's see if they are pressuring to play Messi on a broken leg when he's 37.
after 28 years of not even smelling the semifinals, Iīm pretty sure that if Messi wins this cup in Brazil, he will be considered the greatest argentinian athlete.
and like you say, to put thing in perspective, if you compare Manu with other american players may not be that impressive, but when you compare with the status of argentinian basketball, is freaking unbelieveble.
Take into account that the best players of Argentina always tried to enter the nba, and they didnīt pass training camp, then comes this guy, who can jump and dunk like no one Iīve ever seen in Argentina, start beating Brazil like they havenīt done in decades, then beats for the first time in history a dream team and getīs one bad call away from being world champions, then joins the nba and actually plays meaningful minutes (not like Wolkowitzky or Pepe Sanches), then wins a nba championship, not being the most important player but an important one, then gets the olympic gold (that day Argentina won 2 olimpic golds, in soccer and in Basketball, after 50 years of not winning one in any discipline) defeating for the second time a dream team in the way, then wins the nba le and this time he is the most important piece, and then goes to win another 2 more rings with a team with no clearly franchise player and a tight budget.
Sorry, but Messi needs to do more than winning champions leagues with one of the two more expensive teams in the world to reach this kind of greatness.
Is it true that if Manu doesn't play, his country men will get mad?
only the ones that donīt know about pre and post Manu argentinian basketball.
Ginobili was the leader, but he's wasn't alone in Argentina. Oberto, Scola, Nocioni, Sánchez, etc., it's an incredible generation for a country that, traditionally, hadn't been relevant in basketball for many years. Indeed IMO Argentina would've won that World Championship if he hadn't played the final (they were that good). He was a minus, playing so badly injured, but we all know him and how much of a fierce compe or he is.
Of course Ginobili is incomparable more meaningful to basketball in Argentina than Messi is to football. If that's the discussion, then we can agree.
But Manu himself sums it up better than anybody else in that tweet. After all, Messi is a four-time winner of the Ballon d'Or. Ginobili has never gone past the third all-NBA team.
Champion's League is way harder to win than NBA, it's like having NBA with only 16 teams (= enough talent to have 16 stacked teams) and 2 games playoff format with point difference and only 1 game for the finals. In Champion's League modern era no team has ever repeated and the favorite rarely win it unlike in the NBA where the 7 game format advantages the better team. And you can see in this World Cup that there is no easy game even if one team is considered far stronger, most games are 1 goal difference only.Sorry, but Messi needs to do more than winning champions leagues with one of the two more expensive teams in the world to reach this kind of greatness.
les is what makes an athlete the "greatest", not journalists opinions.
Manu has won everything that can be won in his sport, Messi didnīt (yet).
and of course Manu will say Messi is better, he is not an egocentric caracter like Maradona.
And again, that's why Horry is greater than Duncan.
Messi > Lebron so I don't think this threat makes any sense even tho I really like Manu.
ok...
... but you know messi will never be considered the greatest argentinian athlete until he wins something with the national team, is a different type of compe ion the pressure is of an entire country and not just a city, and no one could be cosidered the greatest underperfoming in those conditions, they can give him all the ballons he wants, is just the way it is.
I think what Ginobili has done is way more impressive but in Argentina it seems like he's less admired than messi. I vote Manu
People from Argentina won't. You're right there. Most of them don't really care about FC Barcelona or the Spurs. It's even worse for Messi: many people in Argentina hated him because he wasn't displaying with the NT the same wonders he was showing game after game in Europe. But we're talking about nationalism here, not sport analysis.
Messi is a big fish in a small pond when you compare Argentina to the rest of the world, or to a lesser extent to the USA or Europe. Thus Manu gets my vote easily.
Just saying if you poll just Argentinians then Messi is the big fish in Argentina, but Argentina is a small pond next to the rest of the world or even the USA or Europe.
Thus if you poll the USA or Europe, or the rest of the world, then I think Manu wins going away.
JMHO.
Your point must be that since soccer is more popular around the world, then so it must be that Messi would be considered the greater athlete around the world?
I disagree with that premise, if that is indeed your premise.
One fact does not make another.
This thread (and everyone who voted for manu) is the stupidest thing I've ever seen lol
It is actually like comparing apples to oranges.
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