NBA: Kobe is the worst MVP player to win multiple championships.

[Kidd K]

Career Offensive ratings:

Magic: 121
Jordan: 118
*LeBron: 116
Kareem: 115
Bird: 115
Shaq: 113
Dr. J: 112
Kobe: 111
Duncan: 110
Hakeem: 108


Career Defensive ratings:

Duncan: 95
Hakeem: 98
Kareem: 99
Dr. J: 100
Shaq: 101
Bird: 101
*LeBron: 102
Jordan: 103
Magic: 104
Kobe: 105


Difference:

Magic: +17
Kareem: +16
Duncan: +15
Jordan: +15
Bird: +14
*LeBron: +14
Shaq: +12
Dr. J: +12
Hakeem: +10
Kobe: +6



Only Kareem is high on both lists (which is why he's underrated in general). Only Kobe is low on both lists (which is why he's overrated in general).

Boiled down: Kobe is lucky to have 5 rings due to the massive help he's gotten, and his ring total does not make up for the fact that he's worse than every great player he's mentioned with. While Duncan's game impact has been as high as Michael Jordan's.

*As for LeBron, in fairness, since he's mid career, his numbers will probably come down a bit.

DRob's second le was right as he was going to retire so I don't count him, but his ratings are: 116/96/+20 if anyone wondered.

[Malik Hairston]

That's quite the method for ranking players, tbh..

[KoolAid Mans Brother]

Kobe's mvp season was bull anyways. Chris Paul deserved mvp that year. He had an absolute beast season. It was a career achievement award.

[Kidd K]

He also has equal or less total MVPs/Finals MVPs than everyone else mentioned too, and arguably didn't deserve 2 of the 3 he did get, especially his only MVP.

[Clipper Nation]

Just more proof that Kirby has a propped-up legacy full of pity awards and role player rings....

[Thread]

Just more proof that Kirby has a propped-up legacy full of pity awards and role player rings....

Only pussies & assholes do legacy.

[Kidd K]

For the record, I only didn't list Wilt and Russell because the NBA didn't have those stats back then. Theirs were extremely likely to be higher than Kobe's too.

[Henrik Sedin]

Only pussies & assholes do legacy.

Tbh, your time here is close to done. You serve no purpose after Duncan curb stomped Koby's legacy and your schtick.

[Killakobe81]

That's quite the method for ranking players, tbh..

LOL I get the need to on Kobe. but wow that list ...
Magic my all-time favorite player and Kareem are GOATS and and on Jordan, Lebron and Duncan. I really like this rating!! Sure Timmy plays better defense (not better than HAkeem, but whatever)

I'll take Kobe at the bottom of a list all day EVERY DAY when you put MAGIC at the top of it over MJ, LBJ Duncan and Bird.
Magic is the GOAT, Kareem is 2nd and the rest can eat a fat one!!
I love stats!!!

[Killakobe81]

Bump this thread ... Magic is greater than Jordan something finally good for REAL Laker fans to rejoice about.

[Kidd K]

LOL I get the need to on Kobe. but wow that list ...
Magic my all-time favorite player and Kareem are GOATS and and on Jordan, Lebron and Duncan. I really like this rating!! Sure Timmy plays better defense (not better than HAkeem, but whatever)

I'll take Kobe at the bottom of a list all day EVERY DAY when you put MAGIC at the top of it over MJ, LBJ Duncan and Bird.
Magic is the GOAT, Kareem is 2nd and the rest can eat a fat one!!
I love stats!!!

I'm not seeing how being one or two points better is " ting on" Duncan and Jordan (especially when they played together). Magic only played 906 games while Duncan is nearly 1,300 and Jordan over 1,000. Jordan was 120/103 with Chicago too for +17, equaling Magic in roughly the same number of games. So tbh, you have to take that into account. Duncan's has slipped down the past few years too due to playing to an older age. He was also +17 at about the same number of games. Kareem though, more games and still bigger difference.

But being several points worse than everyone else in the same category certainly says a lot. And yeah, Kareem and Magic were much better Lakers than Kobe and its not close.

[Jenks]

I have no idea what this list proves but I'll go ahead and add The Admiral, 116 / 96 / +20.
edit -Nvm saw you put him down the bottom.

[BillMc]

Bump this thread ... Magic is greater than Jordan something finally good for REAL Laker fans to rejoice about.

Actually, I agree. Magic is my favorite non-Spur of all time

[Thread]

Tbh, your time here is close to done. You serve no purpose after Duncan curb stomped Koby's legacy and your schtick.

I've been hearing this for 20 years. I shuttered, I say I shuttered AZ Central. I built & I survived Sose's Joint.

Attrition is my friend. And nobody, I said nobody uses it like Culburn369.

[Axegrinder]

I've been hearing this for 20 years. I shuttered, I say I shuttered AZ Central. I built & I survived Sose's Joint.

Attrition is my friend. And nobody, I said nobody uses it like Culburn369.

So who is Sose and how often did he thrust his joint into your super beta prostate?

[Killakobe81]

I'm not seeing how being one or two points better is " ting on" Duncan and Jordan (especially when they played together). Magic only played 906 games while Duncan is nearly 1,300 and Jordan over 1,000. Jordan was 120/103 with Chicago too for +17, equaling Magic in roughly the same number of games. So tbh, you have to take that into account. Duncan's has slipped down the past few years too due to playing to an older age. He was also +17 at about the same number of games. Kareem though, more games and still bigger difference.

But being several points worse than everyone else in the same category certainly says a lot. And yeah, Kareem and Magic were much better Lakers than Kobe and its not close.

I was being facetious. The list is stupid though It is great that it praises Magic's offense and Tim's defense. I love Magic and think he is the GOAT PG and Laker but even he admits he is not as good as MJ. A list like this strictly based on stats is full of .

[Kool Bob Love]

*

[Kidd K]

I was being facetious. The list is stupid though It is great that it praises Magic's offense and Tim's defense. I love Magic and think he is the GOAT PG and Laker but even he admits he is not as good as MJ. A list like this strictly based on stats is full of .

Any opinion that does not include stats (facts) is full of .

Stats are also better than some random couch-jockey's questionable experience and observational ability. It's pathetic when people try to act like facts somehow don't count because of their beliefs which are not based upon facts., but rather hype and what they heard somewhere from people who also don't base their opinions on facts.

[jimbo]

Tbh, your time here is close to done. You serve no purpose after Duncan curb stomped Koby's legacy and your schtick.

You can't kill Culburn's schtick. The people that actually argue with him don't realize that you're playing his game. A game that he's free to change the rules as he sees fit (and has done so, see: the definition of the bag).

Only way to win is not to play.

Any opinion that does not include stats (facts) is full of .

Stats are also better than some random couch-jockey's questionable experience and observational ability. It's pathetic when people try to act like facts somehow don't count because of their beliefs which are not based upon facts., but rather hype and what they heard somewhere from people who also don't base their opinions on facts.

Meh, advanced stats aren't facts--they're the results of a formula. They can be as biased as you want them to make them.

It looks like it heavily rewards good offensive rebounders (since they extend the length of a possession I'm guessing, and offensive rating is boiled down on their formula page as "number of Points Produced per Scoring Possession." So then it also really favors PGs that are their team's offense (w/ a high assist percentage) and that are also efficient, since that leads to a high number of points produced per posession. Lastly, it heavily punishes missed FGs since multiple 1-1s at the line really drag your averages down.

and then it should go without saying, but both offensive and defensive rtg are heavily impacted by the team you play on also.

If it were a "fact", you'd have to accept that some of the best players in the league are (didn't do too much looking, so there might be a couple guys left out)

22.4 DeAndre Jordan
22 CP3
21 Robin Lopez
19 KD
19 Bogut

and that Robin Lopez has had one of the best offensive years in NBA history, oh and not to mention that the best offensive player in history is Chris Paul, and that Jose Calderon has been a better offensive player over his career than Michael Jordan

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

[Kidd K]

You can't kill Culburn's schtick. The people that actually argue with him don't realize that you're playing his game. A game that he's free to change the rules as he sees fit (and has done so, see: the definition of the bag).

Only way to win is not to play.



Meh, advanced stats aren't facts--they're the results of a formula. They can be as biased as you want them to make them.

It looks like it heavily rewards good offensive rebounders (since they extend the length of a possession I'm guessing, and offensive rating is boiled down on their formula page as "number of Points Produced per Scoring Possession." So then it also really favors PGs that are their team's offense (w/ a high assist percentage) and that are also efficient, since that leads to a high number of points produced per posession. Lastly, it heavily punishes missed FGs since multiple 1-1s at the line really drag your averages down.

and then it should go without saying, but both offensive and defensive rtg are heavily impacted by the team you play on also.

If it were a "fact", you'd have to accept that some of the best players in the league are (didn't do too much looking, so there might be a couple guys left out)

22.4 DeAndre Jordan
22 CP3
21 Robin Lopez
19 KD
19 Bogut

and that Robin Lopez has had one of the best offensive years in NBA history, oh and not to mention that the best offensive player in history is Chris Paul, and that Jose Calderon has been a better offensive player over his career than Michael Jordan

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

You say that as if getting an offensive board isn't a good thing. Stuff besides scoring points matters. Paul is a ridiculously good player too. . .underrated tbh. Most of the players on that GOAT list aren't bigs, so there is no rebounding or big man favoritism. You also listed a bunch of role players or borderline role players for your list. Obviously it's possible role players (like Matt Bonner for example) can high high ORatings or +/- and it doesn't mean they're better because they play low minutes and aren't involved in a lot of plays. Nor does it mean it's a bad stat (propositional fallacy. A doesn't = B). But for guys that do, yeah it matters and is quite telling.

What's telling is how literally everyone else on the list is MUCH better. When facts are contrary to your opinion, your first reaction shouldn't be to try to explain away the facts, but instead reconsider your position or at least wonder why it's such a big difference. Kobe is the near or at the bottom on that list in O/D ratings, PER, WS/48, etc. I mean you can sit there and argue the validity of stats, but you can't argue that he keeps coming up short in most of them.

[jimbo]

You say that as if getting an offensive board isn't a good thing. Stuff besides scoring points matters. Paul is a ridiculously good player too. . .underrated tbh. Most of the players on that GOAT list aren't bigs, so there is no rebounding or big man favoritism. You also listed a bunch of role players or borderline role players for your list. Obviously it's possible role players (like Matt Bonner for example) can high high ORatings or +/- and it doesn't mean they're better because they play low minutes and aren't involved in a lot of plays. Nor does it mean it's a bad stat (propositional fallacy. A doesn't = B). But for guys that do, yeah it matters and is quite telling.

What's telling is how literally everyone else on the list is MUCH better. When facts are contrary to your opinion, your first reaction shouldn't be to try to explain away the facts, but instead reconsider your position or at least wonder why it's such a big difference. Kobe is the near or at the bottom on that list in O/D ratings, PER, WS/48, etc. I mean you can sit there and argue the validity of stats, but you can't argue that he keeps coming up short in most of them.

Have you actually looked at the formulas for either of the offensive or defensive ratings? (I'm guessing no or you wouldn't have made this thread in the first place unless you're solely trolling Lakers fans.) I already explained the reasons for why the all time list looks the way it does in my last post...
offensive rating boiled down = number of Points Produced per Scoring Possession

Which is obv not the same as "who is the better offensive player." You can just look at the formula itself to see the weights on every action it takes into account. I am not saying anything revolutionary, I'm saying to look at the formula rather than responding to me. It's that easy. I'm not saying the formula is wrong, I'm explaining why it produces the results it does. (and why you shouldn't use it to make claims about areas it does not cover)

I attacked the formula first, went into the "fallacy" second. I was going at your claim of advanced stats as "facts." (Which ain't no fallacy, just trying to get you to agree with your original post.) If you came to the conclusion that Bryant is the worst player to win multiple championships based off of offensive/defensive ratings--why aren't you applying that logic to the rest of that all time offensive rating leader list? Those numbers are "facts."

Or are you twisting the "facts" to fit your conclusion?

Oh and

Obviously it's possible role players (like Matt Bonner for example) can high high ORatings or +/- and it doesn't mean they're better because they play low minutes and aren't involved in a lot of plays.

Cmon now, basketball-reference already filters that out.

to quality for the season ORtg lists

2012-13 to present NBA 500 Poss

to qualify for the career ORtg lists

Career NBA 5000 Poss

Besides, if you follow the NBA you already know that DeAndre/Robin Lopez/Bogut all play starter minutes, so none of that would apply anyways.

[Venti Quattro]

just stick to playing Final Fantasy

[TDMVPDPOY]

Bump this thread ... Magic is greater than Jordan something finally good for REAL Laker fans to rejoice about.

lol got resorting to his last line of defense...

if all arguments for kobe doesnt work
use the lakers card

[Killakobe81]

Any opinion that does not include stats (facts) is full of .

Stats are also better than some random couch-jockey's questionable experience and observational ability. It's pathetic when people try to act like facts somehow don't count because of their beliefs which are not based upon facts., but rather hype and what they heard somewhere from people who also don't base their opinions on facts.

I agree I said strictly ... But hey magic is the new GOAT thank you for this statistical gold mine ...I have seen the light stats Ruls every thing around Me!

[Clipper Nation]

Prime Magic > Dad KillerPERIOD