LJC and Bertans

[littlecoyotecoin]

The difference between Bertans and Daye is that Bertans is much more versatile shooter. By that I mean he can shoot off screens, off the dribble, pull-up in transitions, and on spot-ups. Think of him as a 6'10" Kyle Korver.

Austin Daye is primarily just a spot-up shooter

I think you're over/under-rating Bertans/Daye, repectively. Bertans isn't as great an all around shooter as you state. He is also not a great ball-handler, and his defensive weaknesses are obvious to many. And, this is against non-NBA compe ion. Daye, despite his short-comings, has been performing against NBA compe ion. If you read this critique of a player:

"Haven't seen Hanga play this year but I do not agree about Bertans. I saw quite a few Partizan games this season and saw nothing at all in him that makes me think he will ever contribute at NBA level. While he did shoot 47% from 3 in Euroleague play, he only shot 22% inside the arc. He is too weak to guard 4's, too slow to guard 3's and really doesn't look like he is interested on the defensive end. He is an awful rebounder. Offensively he is extremely one dimensional, averaging 0.7 assists and 1.2 turnovers per game and really doesn't put the ball on the floor well. In a crucial game against Bamberg he had 2 costly turnovers at big moments in the game."

...and consider the question: Would I be in love with that player if I didn't already know his name? Daye was recently criticized for shooting mid-high 30% over a small sample from inside the arc against NBA compe ion, even though his career numbers are higher. Your much more versatile shooter shot 22% over a season of Euroleague play against lesser compe ion. Daye is a much, much better passer, and decent at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, dishing, drawing fouls, or scoring. Daye is a much better rebounder, currently leading the summer league team in rebounding. Both of their defenses are suspect, but Daye's has been decent in summer league. I would like to see Bertans get a shot, but the notion that he is so ready that we need to leapfrog him ahead of other project players like Daye is not reasonable. He has plenty of improvement to accomplish while Daye gets his shot this year.

The Spurs seem to continue to agree that he is still not ready as he is signing a new 3 year deal with a new team:

http://projectspurs.com/2014-article...-baskonia.html

[Prime Time]

I think you're over/under-rating Bertans/Daye, repectively. Bertans isn't as great an all around shooter as you state. He is also not a great ball-handler, and his defensive weaknesses are obvious to many. And, this is against non-NBA compe ion. Daye, despite his short-comings, has been performing against NBA compe ion. If you read this critique of a player:

"Haven't seen Hanga play this year but I do not agree about Bertans. I saw quite a few Partizan games this season and saw nothing at all in him that makes me think he will ever contribute at NBA level. While he did shoot 47% from 3 in Euroleague play, he only shot 22% inside the arc. He is too weak to guard 4's, too slow to guard 3's and really doesn't look like he is interested on the defensive end. He is an awful rebounder. Offensively he is extremely one dimensional, averaging 0.7 assists and 1.2 turnovers per game and really doesn't put the ball on the floor well. In a crucial game against Bamberg he had 2 costly turnovers at big moments in the game."

...and consider the question: Would I be in love with that player if I didn't already know his name? Daye was recently criticized for shooting mid-high 30% over a small sample from inside the arc against NBA compe ion, even though his career numbers are higher. Your much more versatile shooter shot 22% over a season of Euroleague play against lesser compe ion. Daye is a much, much better passer, and decent at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, dishing, drawing fouls, or scoring. Daye is a much better rebounder, currently leading the summer league team in rebounding. Both of their defenses are suspect, but Daye's has been decent in summer league. I would like to see Bertans get a shot, but the notion that he is so ready that we need to leapfrog him ahead of other project players like Daye is not reasonable. He has plenty of improvement to accomplish while Daye gets his shot this year.

The Spurs seem to continue to agree that he is still not ready as he is signing a new 3 year deal with a new team:

http://projectspurs.com/2014-article...-baskonia.html

1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?

[admiralsnackbar]

I do mean to discredit the draft and stash system. I discredit on the basis that any project that has turned out well, would have turned out well regardless of being stashed. Scratch that, they might have turned out better.

If you've ever run a business, you know that it's better to develop somebody on someone else's dime. The argument that developing raw talent in-house might yield better results isn't really supported by the record (name a first round pick with guaranteed bench-space who actually developed into a usable piece... it's a very short list, and no... George Hill doesn't belong on it).

It's also impractical and unfair to the developing talent: if you're a player and you can win $50k-400k playing abroad, why should you be relegated to the NBDL for $25k because there really aren't any roster spots you can fill immediately?

Determining durability is also an issue. Why risk bringing in players with knee issues when you can let them demonstrate whether they can cope with the grind? There's a big-ass difference between the Euroleague seasons and the 82 game grind of the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?

1) Bertans is excellent from three in Europe. But, you can't say "all-around" and then only quote his 3-point shooting. That's diametrically opposed to being "all-around". When you're only shooting 22% inside the arc, that means your mid-range and long twos aren't falling, either, shots off the dribble in traffic not so good...it doesn't mean you are just "not finishing" whatever that means. With many arguments it comes down to semantics. You said "all around" but then only want to consider "all around" shots outside the three point line. I don't get it, but whatever.

2) To say that Daye is "nothing but shortcomings" identifies another problem. When you can't acknowledge that a player has ANY positives in his game, you're letting your bias affect you. Your opinion is that Daye sucks, so EVERYTHING about him sucks. Daye shot 52.5% from 3 his last stint in Detroit. 40-42% over a couple of full NBA seasons. NBA seasons. That is not a short-coming for a 6'11" guy. He is a better rebounder, and better assist man. These things are pretty hard to argue. That is why you ignore them and go to vague attack: "not legit" and "nothing but shortcomings". And, for the record, Bertans has ALSO never been an NBA player, if that is your criticism of Daye. Whereas Daye, actually, HAS BEEN AND IS an NBA player, just one you don't feel is "legit", which is non-quantifiable, as is Bertans "potential" to HOPEFULLY become an NBA player. Lastly, I'm not sure why you introduce potential into a discussion about guys that you seem to agree aren't fighting for the same position. You say you aren't saying Bertans is ready to come over, then what does the 4 1/2 years more potential have to do with anything? If it is determined that he will come to the NBA in a year or two, then Daye will have either been a project that worked out by then, or will have been shipped out. How is that a conflict? And, if Bertans can't beat out a Daye that survived, if necessary, for a spot, in 1-3 years for Daye's position, exactly how good is Bertans if Daye sucks so hard? Daye is on the last year of his contract.

3) For future reference, if you copy and past the quote in Google, it's the first thing that comes up.

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/davis-...becoming-beast

The quote is from May, 2013.

4) Bertans is much more fleet afoot than Daye. He's also a little shorter. But, he doesn't appear to be shooting all that well off of those screens, except out at the 3 point line. That's great. But, again. If you need a screen to get your shot off, it sounds like you also need to be WIDE OPEN. In traffic, inside the arc, he shot 22% during the quoted Euroleage. How versatile is that? Not very. And, maybe he can refine the versatility you are referring to, but in the last two years, not everyone shares your opinion, and there are at least some numbers to refute it, possibly. I am hopeful for him, as well.

5) Where do people pull this stuff out from? That is the premise of the thread - the original post. Txlabrat wants to bring Bertans over NOW. I am glad you agree that Bertans is not ready to come over now. But, again, that was the premise of the thread...that we should bring him over NOW. Unlike you, regarding Daye, I am not saying that Bertans won't be an NBA player. I don't know. I am just saying that I don't think he is ready, and at least some other amateurs like myself seem to agree with me on message boards, and a front office that just won the NBA championship seems to agree (and they disagree with you about Daye). Bertans isn't ready. Seems like we got an agreefest going on, except for TxLabRat. But, he's cool. He'll get over it.

[palangi]

1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?

Unfortunately the grass is always greener on the other side for some.
And some have a hard time seeing pay their own nose.

At this point Bertans is NOT an upgrade over daye. And giving up on Daye this early could be a huge mistake.

[ChumpDumper]

How many full games of Bertans have you guys seen?

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Bertans and LJC aren't better than Bonner and Daye. Mentioning Hanga, Lobrek, or Dangubic would be hysterically laughable. Potential and youth at the end of the bench doesn't trump the NBA level tested value that Bonner, Daye, Ayers bring.

Bertans and LJC haven't proven themselves yet, according to the experts. I haven't even watched any Bertans, and i only skimmed the hoops summit. I know nothin about they're potential, or potential in general. I believe the spurs future is brighter when drafted players are stashed far away. I doubt they will get hurt or fizzle out while stashed away. I have full confidence that foreign playing time and compe ion, trump sitting on the bench and garbage minutes during the big 3 era. Stashery will prove more valuable to a post Duncan/Manu roster. I believe playing Bonner against Ibaka is a championship level desperate move. And next season, if the situation calls, i believe Daye and Ayers would be equally championship level ace in the holes. Daye and Ayers are far better desperate options than LJC and Bertans, i see that now.

i'm sorry i wasted your time with this thread. I'm just a drunk troll. I wanted the attention. Maybe i never got enough as a child. I never felt stashed away or neglected, but i don't know... my bad. thanks for the enlightenment.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Far better? No excluded middle here.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

they are far better! immeasurable youth and potential clearly has nothing on nba level experience, and statistically proven value. Bertans and LJC can't predictably execute, shoot, defend, and board enough to compensate for the loss of those abilities from Bonner, and Daye/Ayers. And even if they somehow did, it would be a fluke. The spurs can't afford to lose the draft rights of flukey producers. Stashers must make or break abroad, so they can be givin contracts based on their predictable production or not.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Only two entire games, here, and clips from youtube, which, granted, are highlights, and probably make him appear far better than he is, true. And, granted, that's far fewer complete games than The Spurs front office has watched, so I defer to them.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Only two entire games, here, and clips from youtube, which, granted, are highlights, and probably make him appear far better than he is, true. And, granted, that's far fewer complete games than The Spurs front office has watched, so I defer to them.

yeah you're right, i defer to them too. like i said, close thread. i was an ignorant troll. the spurs FO has the midas touch. i'm a bad fan to have even considered questioning their logic with my ignorant speculation.

[littlecoyotecoin]

yeah you're right, i defer to them too. like i said, close thread. i was an ignorant troll. the spurs FO has the midas touch. i'm a bad fan to have even considered questioning their logic with my ignorant speculation.

I definitely wasn't calling you ignorant. I like your posts, in general. I just disagree with you on this one. And, the FO isn't infallable. Some would just mention a few names like: Jefferson, Scola, and Barbosa to prove that. But, they will bring really young guys over when they think it's merited: Parker. Or, play US rookies, when merited: Kawhi. Anyway, you're all good, DTL. Take care.

[jon123spurs]

Sportando (@ sportando) tweeted at 5:00 AM on Sat, Jul 19, 2014:
Davis Bertans signed a 3-year deal with Baskonia. The contract has NBA out every year. The worth is little shy than 2M of euros, I am told
(https://twitter.com/ sportando/status/ 490436105914056704)

[yavozerb]

Sportando (@ sportando) tweeted at 5:00 AM on Sat, Jul 19, 2014:
Davis Bertans signed a 3-year deal with Baskonia. The contract has NBA out every year. The worth is little shy than 2M of euros, I am told
(https://twitter.com/ sportando/status/ 490436105914056704)

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not. He wasnt even in a Euro contract. The spurs clearly made the best financial decision here.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not. He wasnt even in a Euro contract. The spurs clearly made the best financial decision here.

Their opinion of Bertans' readiness is so low, even him not being under contract was no enticement.

[ChumpDumper]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not.

He played two and a half hours of basketball last season. Obviously ready to dominate the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

He played two and a half hours of basketball last season. Obviously ready to dominate the NBA.

Sounds like a half hour of overkill to me. Get that sum some rest.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Lol! Y'all are soo right. I can't wait to see Bonner mentor his true heirs this season. Ayers/Daye are a collective Bonner prodigy. Not only is there no need for LJC and Bertans, but I hope somebody takes *Baynes off our hands. The Spurs are set.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Sounds like a half hour of overkill to me. Get that sum some rest.

X2! no prolonged injury recovery is ever overkill. Bertans and LJC need serious minute management abroad. The minute managed foreign development is still more valuable than riding the pine in San Antonio. Ayers/Daye, Bonner value considered, of course!

[ChumpDumper]

Have you been drunk for the past week?

This meltdown of yours has staying power.

Bartans played two and a half hours last season because he couldn't physically play any more than that.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Have you been drunk for the past week?

This meltdown of yours has staying power.

Bartans played two and a half hours last season because he couldn't physically play any more than that.

This all actually comes as i've scaled back a bit.

And i'm not debating on the side of playing Bertans.

[ChumpDumper]

This all actually comes as i've scaled back a bit.

And i'm not debating on the side of playing Bertans.

It's difficult to tell what you are trying to say at all.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Pop might actually play Bertans and LJC if they were on the roster. And that would be disaster. Not just because they would suck compared to the players they'd replace. But they also shouldn't be playing yet, they aren't healthy enough.

I've seen the light, Chump. I really have. I'm not pounding booze and thinking spurs, anymore. I'm sipping appropriately and loving spurs!

[littlecoyotecoin]

Pop might actually play Bertans and LJC if they were on the roster. And that would be disaster. Not just because they would suck compared to the players they'd replace. But they also shouldn't be playing yet, they aren't healthy enough.

I've seen the light, Chump. I really have. I'm not pounding booze and thinking spurs, anymore. I'm sipping appropriately and loving spurs!

Cool. You sounded a tad sarcastic and bitter. Good to hear we misread it.