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lolplayed with another 3 guys who were above avg defenders when he won dpoy, same with big ben
Bowen
lolplayed with another 3 guys who were above avg defenders when he won dpoy, same with big ben
Because Jordan got all the calls on defense later on in his career.
And bird torches everyone.
Also forgot cooper in the group.
Overrated defenders: mutombo, Ben Wallace Dwight Howard wilt (think deandre jordan on steroids) Alvin Robertson.
Most perimeter defenders in the last 8 or so years are very much underrated, the rules have really hampered them.
A) Payton was called the glove way before 96. In 93 when he was locking down KJ vs the suns.
B) that past prime Jordan just led the bulls to a 72-10 record and led the league in scoring.
C) Payton started making all d teams since 94
D) Payton won DPoY in 96 and got the award before the finals series vs Jordan. It was extremely rare for perimeter players to win DPoY back in the day.
Rodman was incredible with the pistons but he wasn't with the spurs because he didn't give a damn.
Don't confuse rebounding with defense. David lee Kevin love and cookie jar all can rebound but none of them can play d.
Also rodman played d the best before he started rebounding like a maniac.
He also played offense with the Pistons and not with the spurs or with the bulls. Figuring out the looniness that is/was Rodman would take more space than this forum can host.
Good list, but I would take Duncan and Mutumbo over Payton and Pippen. Bigs have a larger impact defensively than wing guys. Pippen though was certainly one of the best non big man defenders. There was a player for the Bucks back in the 80's named Sidney Moncrief was who ridiculously good, though it always seems like no one remembers him.
Hard to remember someone who plays for a team in a city everyone wants to forget.
Gary Payton adjusted defensive on/off results:
1993: above average
1994: above average
1995: average
1996: above average
1997: above average
1998: average
1999: negative impact on his team
2000: average
2001: negative
2002: negative
2003: negative
There was never a season where Payton's teams suffered significantly on defense when he left the floor, and didn't improve much when he was on the floor..
You can argue against the numbers, but they translate well for every other great defender, even on the perimeter(Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Bowen, Rodman, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc all have high-impact defensive on/off metrics that display their importance to them team)..
Using the great Scottie Pippen's metrics as a comparison:
1992: high
1993: high
1994: historic
1995: elite
1996: elite
1997: high
1998: average
1999: high
2000: high
Last edited by Malik Hairston; 07-20-2014 at 10:56 AM.
Go ahead and pump Deandre Jordan full of all the steroids in the world. Wilt had 17 blocks in his first NBA game and 25 in a single game. He could block shots FEET over the rim. Add the fact that he's the greatest rebounder in history. Deandre Jordan, yeah ok.
Obligatory stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...rb_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._g_career.html
Wasn't that back when goal tending was never called?
Never mind his time as a role player, people forget how good he was for a couple years as a primary option on the Clippers after he tore his ACL.... one of the best players never to make an All-Star Game...
He also posted elite numbers playing with in Minnesota and had elite advanced defensive metrics even this year. His team's defense when he is off the floor is garbage compared to him being on the floor. Like I said, KG is a massive but he was a legit defensive beast
Moncrief, Delph, Brewer...
Pigs, suueee...
Too many are underrating Duncan and the hallmarks of consistency, flexibility and and longevity. And overrating players that had 2-3 years of elite performance followed by nothing special, or that did nothing but defense and spent no effort on the other side of the court. Or that ultimately were great at one or two skills at defense but failed at the whole picture.
Duncan's advanced metrics for the first 10 years of his career are amazing. And during this time, he won 4 les as THE defensive anchor and team leader. So many others mention great defenders for a few years that may have one ring. The prime Duncan Spurs are the best defensive team of all time, maybe not in a single season but for the entire stretch overall. It's like comparing Hakeem to Duncan. Duncan wins because of consistency and longevity. You get credit for adjusting your game and staying elite.
In the the years that have followed, Duncan has had a slow decline but has maintained his role as the defensive anchor and adjusted his game to maximize the strengths he retained. He is still the center of the defense at the age of 38.
Defense isn't about blocks or rebounding stats. Camby blocks a lot of shots, he wasn't a particularly great defender. Kevin Willis grabbed borne, he wasn't a particularly good defender.
Wilt didn't anchor a defense the way Russell did. He didn't change the entire complexion of his team and turned those defensive stats into a dominant defensive team.
Total monkey baller defensive player.
Most dominant player in the history of the NBA, most athletic 7 footer in the history of the NBA. Dismiss by saying rebounds and blocks are meaningless and athleticism = monkeyball. K.
And FYI I don't know why you'd single out Camby, he was a damn good defender, with a DPOY to back it up.
a dominant defensive big can hold a defense down for stretches. a dominant perimeter defender is worthless if on a poor overall defensive squad, though. the Heat got shredded defensively even though Lebron is no slouch. Orlando was a stout defensive team with Dwight even with guys like Turkoglu and Rashard being starters
...The Triplets.
What I have found most impressive thru the years is not live defensive moments, but, moments that are caught by the production truck and then aired.
The best defenders I ever saw by position:
Center: Hakeem
PF: Rodman (pistons version over overrated Bulls version)
SF: Pippen
SG: Cooper
PG: The Glove over Dennis Johnson
Honorable Mention:
Centers: David Robinson, Alonzo and Dwight (LOL at those using DPOY Dwight is a great defender but not even top 5 among bigs I have seen)
PF: Timmy KG & Ben Wallace (Karl Malone and McHale were overrated Ben played center in a weak era for centers if Tim is a PF, Wallace is too)
SF: Bowen, Lebron James (overrated but still very good when locked in)
SG: Tony Allen, Jordan and Kobe (Jordan and Kobe overrated on that end but like Lebron when locked in very good)
PG: Prime Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Mo cheeks, Nate McMillan
Although at their best the superstars that were great defenders were better than guys I chose EXCEPT Hakeem I think the defensive specialists like Cooper and Rodman deserve the edge over Jordan, Tim etc who had so much offensive burden they could not always lock in on defense.
We finally agree on something. Good form
What about Ewing? Where exactly do you guys think he falls defensively when compared to Hakeem, Robinson, etc?
Helps that the Prime Duncan years were in the tiest era for offensive basketball.
Legal zone defense + handchecking
lol
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