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Because NBA legacies isn't just all about efficiency and advance statistics?
Aside from ring count, Kobe doesn't measure up to the Big German.
Raw per game playoff stats:
Dirk: 25.6ppg, 10.6rpg, 2.5apg, 1.1stl, 0.9blk, .461FG, .579TS%
Kobe: 25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7apg, 1.4stl, 0.7blk, .448FG, .541TS%
Advantage Dirk
Advanced playoff stats:
Dirk: PER - 24.2
Kobe: 22.4
Offensive rating:
Dirk: 117
Kobe: 110
Defensive rating:
Dirk: 107
Kobe: 106
Win Shares per 48:
Dirk: .196
Kobe: .157
Advantage Dirk
Clutch:
Advantage Dirk
Head-to-head (not a big fan of this arbitrary stat, but Kobe fans love it, so I'll include it):
Advantage Dirk
The only edge Kobe has is 2 Finals MVPs to 1, but Dirk has only been to two NBA Finals in his career, so the sample sizes aren't really fair. No doubt detractors will bring up Dirk's choke jobs, but we can't forget that Kobe got outplayed by Austin Croshere in the 2000 Finals, singlehandedly shot the Lakers out of a le in '04, choked a 3 to 1 lead to the Suns in '06, shot 6-19 in the historic game 4 of the '08 NBA Finals, which saw the Celtics storm back from a 24 point road deficit (NBA record), got destroyed by the largest Finals closeout game deficit in NBA history (39 points), and would've been labeled a choker had the Celtics finished the job in '10.
Obviously the difference is Kobe had Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom while the best big Dirk ever got to play alongside with was Tyson Chandler.
Other than "rings" there's no argument one can make that places Kobe above Dirk on the all-time great list.
And no, "rings" isn't the only argument "you need."
Last edited by midnightpulp; 07-22-2014 at 09:17 PM.
Because NBA legacies isn't just all about efficiency and advance statistics?
but you didn't answer his question
Yeah, legacies come from being the sidekick of dominant bigmen. Don't you know anything?
Who's "we"? I certainly don't put a marginal role player above Dirk....
It doesn't matter if a player is a sidekick or not. It's really not black and white. When we're talking about ranking players, and this is taking decades of variances that took place, there are far more important and several factors used to measure their respective place in history.
Like what?
For my money, stats should be valued above all when ranking individual players. And playoff stats, both raw and advanced, should be of supreme value in this case.
LA >> Dallas in market size
Sociopaths >>>> normal people in media coverage
1 ring as the alpha = 1 ring as the alpha (i'm giving Kobe .5 for the two with MVPau)
Mid, if you want to be a realist, the stats are just a portion of it. Like it or not, championships, personal accolades, marketing, respect from peers and a players ability to manipulate the media goes a long way when it comes to weighing ones worth in the annals of history.
You can say Kobe's been unbelievably lucky since he ended up in one of the most ideal situations to be successful, but the fact remains the presentation of his basketball career is a tad bit better and glamorous than Dirk. Hypothetical scenarios are great for people who differs in opinions but it stays there, outside of these forums it's not valued as much. Purists can argue both ways and we can only agree that it's an ingenious observation to say the whole rating system itself was flawed since day one.
marketing and "respect from peers and a players ability to manipulate the media" are not relevant to the "who was a better basketball player" question though
/thread
lol its like the people who use stats to say Melo is more clutch overall than Kobe
If I were selecting a franchise player, I'd choose Dirk over Bryant for sure.
but but advanced stats...
It's relevant. He said "ranking" so all of the above and some applies.
And you can't simply say one is really better than the other in its intended term. Both plays two different positions.
Because Kirk has no balls.
we're talking basketball though. marketing and image are irrelevant
Nah, it's relevant.
how does marketing help answer "who is a better basketball player"
It's of great importance actually. Jabbar is a better player than Magic, but everyone perceives the latter as a better player. Magic was heavily marketed by the league and was held in a higher esteem than Jabbar, you can also apply the media manipulation here as Magic simply knows how to use his charisma around the same circle while Jabbar was aloof.
You can't properly measure Kobe and Dirk's skill level by simply using statistics. In this case better player is such a broad term. Pundits are not stuck in advance #'s because to do so will simply change the whole landscape of their ranking. It's not accurate but these a good chance it will remain the way it is, because every player has a narrative that essentially makes them a "better " player. It's never about just #'s.
With advance #'s, Lebron is easily the second best player in history. While he's not far off, no one in his right mind with his job and reputation on the line would actually say this without having fear of losing credibility. Like I said before, there's a system or formula in place that looks at the whole picture when determining a players place in history. To simply say, his stats is better than the other so he's better is just dull.
This is what I'm seeing as the real issue.
A fan of basketball who is knowledgeable about statistics would know without reasonable doubt which player is better. Its not their fault that other fans of the game lack the knowledge to actually view and compare statistics. That advertising portion is for people who settle for the force fed bull and you shouldn't plead a case for them. Let them continue to eat everything that's deludes them; Symbolically, Metaphorically, and Literally. ,
That's a very short sighted way of looking at it. I don't have any issues with statistics, and also acknowledge in retrospect that Kobe has been overrated and Dirk is a bit under it. But to simply support the idea that statistics is all that matters is a pretty stupid claim. No one with common sense should believe that.
OP you're a lot better when you're doing this than when you're shilling for ZoG..kobe couldn't have done what dirk did in 2011 nuff said.
I'll tell you this. Marketing does give you a mental advantage. Being told that you great all the time has everyone thinking that your great. Other players around the league have no choice but to hear about your greatness because they "unbelievably" have lives to get to. But rather than hearing about how they or scored a career high on the webs they come home to your greatness
Marketing sure as well can rig a ing game or series for you to get you over a hump...a hump you shouldn't have gotten over in the first place. It should also give you the room to be and flop in games while ESPN spin and spew it out as an innocent kindly gesture towards the fun the game. Oh my....marketing. If you were a women, you'd be the baddest .
Last edited by ~O~; 07-23-2014 at 01:39 AM.
Are Lakerfans going to put forth a counter? I hope they don't expect a Spursfan to do it.
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