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check realgm top100 player thread going atm which
this is clown is ranked 6 behind duncan
they are upto to 10 atm, lol wankers trying t o make a case for another overrated pos KG to be top 10
Amb dropping truth nukes
check realgm top100 player thread going atm which
this is clown is ranked 6 behind duncan
they are upto to 10 atm, lol wankers trying t o make a case for another overrated pos KG to be top 10
You'd like that to be true, wouldn't you?
Stat I look at is:
28,500+ points and 5,500 missed FTs at 53% FT
6 Finals appearances in 12 seasons.
Still a force but could have been even better...
Duncan 5
TOSB kobe 5
In all seriousness, Shaq wasn't a qualified basketball player who was incapable of shooting, making free throw...
I love when folks speak in absolutes about things that are subjective. Do you do this in your business and personal life as well?
I did not assault his game because I dont want to be one of those ones that are doing so for "kobe based reasons". But since for you it ALWAYS comes back to Kobe. Shaq was a historically bad FT shooter, horrid pnr defender, cared more about TV and rap than improving his post game. Had very limited range and clashed with team-mates and FO at almost every stop even though he was great with fans and the community. How about that?
I liked Shaq not loved Shaq and it has nothing to do with Kobe, but I freely admit that I chose Kobe during their beef. After watching young Tim ring in 1999 I argued at rec games and the barber shop we should trade him for Duncan straight-up. Now granted, Shaq was the primary force of the next 3 le teams ...and got in GREAT Shape in 2000. And I thought My proposed trade agfter his first MVP year was stupid ... but Tim added 2 more Finals MVP's and two MVP's soon after. This despite Shaq being taller, stronger and faster than Duncan. UNDERACHIEVER.
That being said one of the most dominant players I have ever seen when motivated and if we got 2000 Shaq more often not Kobe, MJ or Lebron would be greater.
So speaking in absolutes that say, Jordan was indisputably greater than John Paxson, is something that is an issue?
Hey, Paxon was definitely the betters shooter, but it still doesn't change the fact that Jordan was indisputably better.
Shaq was a better leader (not alienating his teammates), one of the greatest of all time in the low post, fantastic passer out of the post, historically agile and quick for a man of his size and strength, and just overall a better basketball player. And for all those things you listed about Shaq, he was STILL better than Kobe and West (as a player, not a Laker).
As for height and strength, Artis Gilmore was stronger and taller than almost anybody in NBA history, there there were a whole list of people taller and stronger than Jordan, Bird, Magic, but they aren't underachievers because of that. This is a game that is MUCH more than physical size and strength, and I am shocked you came up with an "argument" that is so ridiculously nonsensical.
In terms of absolute peak in dominance, I would have Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Lebron and Jabbar as having the top 5 peaks. Wilt as an old timer, and Dr. J in the ABA. There really aren't any others who are even close to their level of dominance during their absolute primes.
Ambchang with A10 warthog level of ground-pounding.
Laker fans turn on their former players because they have a fragile ego in tinseltown. That's the only reason you would EVER throw a legend who won you multiple rings under the bus. It's ing bizarre. I mean, come on killa, you gotta admit that not even PHILLY fans, who set the bar for ty fanbases, would do this. Can you imagine them doing this to AI? And he didn't even ring! I say this as someone who was absolutely no fan at all of Shaq in his day, but the lengths Lakers fans will go to in order to prop up certain legacies is absolutely absurd.
Why most you be so obtuse? For a person that seems as intelligent as you appear to be the subject of Kobe and ridiculous correlations like Paxson TO MJ really cripple your credibility. We were talking Laker greats I think everyone I mentioned (as you did in your previous post) were all HOF'ers why would you bring a scrub in to the conversation? YEsI can absolutely say MJ is greater than Paxson, and Kobe and Shaq and Duncan. But to say without a doubt and unquestionably when you are talking Shaq vs. Kobe or Duncan etc is asinine. I can even "get" someone arguing at his peak that Shaq was more dominant than MJ this is all ing opinions and the fact that you act like yours is somehow more valuable or credible than mine especially when you refuse to acknowledge your bias is laughable.
Shaq was definitely more popular than Kobe on his teams no doubt about it... But how was he a better "leader"? When he was the unquestioned leader without Phil or before Kobe matured he did not win . Did not alienate team-mates? Ask Penny, ask Kobe, ask Nash, Eddie Jones, Nick van Exel or even Wade at the end. Nash even threatened him with litigation for stealing his idea for a ty TV show. If he is as great and dominant and also a better leader why has he been swept out of the playoffs as many times as he has. Shouldnt a great leader who was also such a dominant leader lead his team to one win? So Koeb can be derided for leading a team to missing the playoffs or losing in the first round but a guy that is unquestionably as great as you say he is fail to lead "good, not great" teams to one playoff win?
I know it does not fit your little campaign but the reality is fisher and Fox were the true leaders of the Lakers 3 peat in the locker-room even if Shaqobe led them on the court. And Phil really took leadership away from them with his presence and so I dont credit either with leadership. in fact both did more damage to locker-room harmony. I believe the late great Jim Murray wrote about how Shaq used to clown Eddie Jones on the bench about he was a choker and used to laugh when he would pass up late game shots. What a great team-mate what an amazing leader. Was Eddie Jones an asshole? Did he do anything to deserve that type of derision from the team leader could you imagine Duncan or even Kobe doing that? By all accounts not only was EJ a quiet introspective type he was even better than Kobe and Shaq in the community very humble.
Please Amb send your Kobe/Shaq spin elsewhere ... because you dont know as much about that team as I do. I read the LA Times, Daily News and Orange county Register during that era. I followed the team CLOSE. You appear to know very little about Shaq. And how exactly were you judging his leadership btw? Wins and losses? Press accounts? Or just by your blind Kobe hate?
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-24-2014 at 01:22 PM.
If it wasn't for Shaq it would be
Duncan 5
TOSB Kobe 2
Because of Shaq it's
Duncan 5
TOSB Kobe 5
Of course Without Horry ...
Duncan 3 Kobe 3
Without Ray Allen it's
Duncan 6 Kobe 5
I don't think anyone has ever thought of Shaq as some incredible leader. However, Kobe Bryant is seriously the biggest headcase of a teammate of any of the top 15 players of all time. No one did so much to alienate so many players... And not scrubs, ALL-WORLD players that Kobe just couldn't handle. It's absurd that Kobe quite literally ran two of the best big men in the NBA out of town. 3 if you count Bynum, who Kobe eviscerated before he even set foot on the court.
What? Since when was Horry key for the Spurs for anything other than the 05 run?
Jordan > Paxson is an opinion as well, it's an opinion that's shared by 100% of the people in the world, including Paxson's grandmother, but it's still an opinion.
The issue you have is with the magnitude in difference between Shaq and Kobe vs. Jordan and Paxson, and I am not arguing that Jordan > Paxson at the same level as Shaq > Kobe, but I am arguing that there are absolutes, even in opinions, because of the number of people sharing that opinion.
Other than Kobe fans, it is impossible to even argue Kobe > Shaq as a basketball player. People make Shaq out to be only dominant during the 3 peat, but conveniently ignored the fact that he was putting up similar numbers since his second season. His understanding of the game improved as he aged, but his dominance had been going on for years. He had a solid 6 or 7 year run (after Hakeem and Robinson's decline) where teams were adjusting their entire defensive makeup to adjust for his dominance. Scrubs like Scott Pollard and Chris Dudley got recognition as some sort of valuable contributor because they can give those extra 6 fouls on Shaq, players like Mengke Bateer actually got jobs in the NBA because of their size and 6 fouls, and that went on, not for the three peat, it went on from about 97 to 04.
Kobe can't even have one single season with that level of dominance, and his peak was when his team stunk. Kobe was best from 05 to 06. Not only did his team stunk, his peak wasn't even remotely close to Shaq's semi-peak.
Shaq was swept in a few series, not in the first round. You make it sound like he never won a playoff game without Kobe. Actually scratch that, I don't even know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to argue Shaq was swept therefore he is a lesser leader than Kobe? I don't get that, you have to spell it out for me.
And I didn't say Shaq is the best teammate, I said he's better than Kobe, which really isn't that hard to do. I mean, NOTHING, I mean NOTHING, top ratting out your teammate to cops during a finals run (maybe sleeping with his wife/mom, so Delonte takes the cake in that one). The number of teammates Kobe threw under the bus can be a basketball team on their own, complete with a coaching staff.
No question both were horrible people, you can even gloat that Kobe never mocked the mentally disabled on social network, just that Kobe was worse. And yes, I totally agree Fisher was the leader, which is a huge reason Kobe needed him to ring all 5 times (and Phil).
I know this, Kobe ratted Shaq out to the cops after not hanging around the team in any events.
I know Kobe was hurt by nobody supporting him during the rape trial, only to be put in his place by Brian Shaw telling him that they barely know him
I know Kobe had huge beef with Smush Parker AFTER Parker was gone
I know Kobe threw the entire management under the bus for his own failures
I know Kobe publicly derided MVPau over and over again despite MVPau's contribution. Taking all the credit and deflecting all the blame.
I know Kobe threw Bynum under the bus
Never argued Kobe was a great leader or a great team-mate. Just saying because you dont like Kobe you gloss over Shaq's failings. Shaq is a great player but should have been GOAT imho. And no he is not the greatest Laker not even the GOAT Lakers center. Definitely a great player where he ranks among the very great is definitely debatable. And the fact you say there is no debate but spent all those words to argue it and keep making the same ty arguments over and over with such vigor tells me. No one needs to go to so much work to debate Lebron over Durant ... for example.Jordan > Paxson is an opinion as well, it's an opinion that's shared by 100% of the people in the world, including Paxson's grandmother, but it's still an opinion.
The issue you have is with the magnitude in difference between Shaq and Kobe vs. Jordan and Paxson, and I am not arguing that Jordan > Paxson at the same level as Shaq > Kobe, but I am arguing that there are absolutes, even in opinions, because of the number of people sharing that opinion.
Other than Kobe fans, it is impossible to even argue Kobe > Shaq as a basketball player. People make Shaq out to be only dominant during the 3 peat, but conveniently ignored the fact that he was putting up similar numbers since his second season. His understanding of the game improved as he aged, but his dominance had been going on for years. He had a solid 6 or 7 year run (after Hakeem and Robinson's decline) where teams were adjusting their entire defensive makeup to adjust for his dominance. Scrubs like Scott Pollard and Chris Dudley got recognition as some sort of valuable contributor because they can give those extra 6 fouls on Shaq, players like Mengke Bateer actually got jobs in the NBA because of their size and 6 fouls, and that went on, not for the three peat, it went on from about 97 to 04.
Kobe can't even have one single season with that level of dominance, and his peak was when his team stunk. Kobe was best from 05 to 06. Not only did his team stunk, his peak wasn't even remotely close to Shaq's semi-peak.
Shaq was swept in a few series, not in the first round. You make it sound like he never won a playoff game without Kobe. Actually scratch that, I don't even know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to argue Shaq was swept therefore he is a lesser leader than Kobe? I don't get that, you have to spell it out for me.
And I didn't say Shaq is the best teammate, I said he's better than Kobe, which really isn't that hard to do. I mean, NOTHING, I mean NOTHING, top ratting out your teammate to cops during a finals run (maybe sleeping with his wife/mom, so Delonte takes the cake in that one). The number of teammates Kobe threw under the bus can be a basketball team on their own, complete with a coaching staff.
No question both were horrible people, you can even gloat that Kobe never mocked the mentally disabled on social network, just that Kobe was worse. And yes, I totally agree Fisher was the leader, which is a huge reason Kobe needed him to ring all 5 times (and Phil).
I know Kobe was hurt by nobody supporting him during the rape trial, only to be put in his place by Brian Shaw telling him that they barely know him
I know Kobe had huge beef with Smush Parker AFTER Parker was gone
I know Kobe threw the entire management under the bus for his own failures
I know Kobe publicly derided MVPau over and over again despite MVPau's contribution. Taking all the credit and deflecting all the blame.
I know Kobe threw Bynum under the bus
Cry I have no beef with you but isnt Amb guilty of going to even greater lengths to discredit Kobe? I argued Shaq's place but I dont see how you can not see a reasonable argument that Kareem Magic and even Kobe are greater. Not saying any is a definite fact are or it's not debatable but when Amb with his posts acts that his position is unassailable is my issue here. I can see a case (Easily) that Shaq is greater than Kobe but acting like it's not close is silly and biased. And I dont spend my days bashing Shaq he is not my favorite Laker not even close ...but he is definitely the greatest I saw not named Magic or Kareem (as a Laker)
Cry just because you also dont like Kobe doesnt mean AMb is right here.
There really is a reason I am glossing over Shaq's failings, because I am comparing him against Kobe! It's like saying a petty thief is a saint compared to an armed robber, there' s no need for me to go over how the petty thief once stole a roll of toilet paper from the office because I am comparing him to some guy who pistol whipped a 16-year old cash register in a gas station before stealing $250 from a cash register.
I need to go through all those words because, apparently, you don't get it, and you seem to be in the minority as well. I am talking to you now, am I? You have made it clear you see Kobe > Shaq, no?
EDIT: You haven't seem to produce a case of Kobe > Shaq, is it because Kobe is so much > Shaq that there is no reason to, or is it because there is none?
Because your hate blinds you. Read the OP post or the le of this thread. It is SHAQ that is the subject not Kobe. I do not agree with the OP and said so in my first reply. I just said Shaq is overrated which he is ,,,by some. DO Kobe fans underrate him? Sure, they do. But I stand by my posts. Why would I argue Kobe over Shaq here ... when that was not the topic at hand? And why waste my time when you are obviously pre-disposed to your position? In the time we have had discourse on here what indication have you given that you would even consider my POV? SO why should I bother? for validation from the Laker/Kobe crew? To get internet cred? To have Cry (no offense Havoc) suck me off? I chose to speak on the Shaq is overrated premise have no interest in making the Kobe>Shaq case, here. Just arguing it's debatable which is pretty obvious because you keep doing it.
LOL you topped your Paxson analogy with an even more outrageous one ... congratulations! Am i suppose to take that seriously and do you real think your wall of words are gonna convince anyone? All you get is a response from Kool and handjobs from those that already agree with you. Props.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 07-24-2014 at 02:50 PM.
and Robinson 3
No, without Rob it's
Duncan 3
Tired old bag Bryant 2
D-Rob is my all-time favorite player, but Shaq in his prime would crap all over Robinson. Especially when the league started letting him get away with backing his opponent down with that shoulder and just driving it straight into the chest of whoever was guarding him. Plus Robinson was too afraid of getting dunked on to really play Shaq tough. I would say Mutumbo would give Shaq more of a problem than Robinson.
Apparently you've never watched Robinson play shaq.
As someone who witnessed Robinson's entire career, watching every game he played... I'd have to disagree that Robinson was "too afraid of gettign dunked on to really play Shaq tough."
Before the back injury, Robinson gave Shaq more trouble than any other center in the 90's. DRob was 5-2 vs Shaq from 93-96.
During those 7 meetings:
Robinson: 29.4 PPG, 12.1 rebs, 2.7blks
Shaq: 25.2PPG, 13.2 rebs, 1.7blks
I'd say DRob held his own against a young Orlando Shaq. After the back injury (during Shaq's Lakers days) the stats definitely skewed Shaq's way, but DRob still did a better job of defending Shaq than Duncan could (or 90% of centers in the league could from 1999-2002). Duncan was too skinny to adequately defend Shaq, so the Spurs were forced to let Malik Rose (he of the infamous "pull the chair" move) try to defend Shaq when DRob was out of the game.
If your argument is that Shaq's prime was 1999-2002, then yes, Shaq crapped on him and EVERYONE in the league. Dave still did an adequate job against him, considering his loss of athleticism due to the injuries. I hated Shaq back in those days, because the no one could stop him. I always complained about his bulldozing his way to the basket, but I can't blame the guy for doing it as long as the league let him get away with it. He took a lot more punishment than he ever dished out though, with guys physically assaulting him to stop him from getting "And-1's."
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