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  1. #451
    Rum and Coke SupremeGuy's Avatar
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    I love the irony in this thread:
    a) Manu only plays 100%
    b) the Spurs decision will affect his play next season

    Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Either Manu is always ON, or he isn't.
    He's ON when the Spurs tell him to be on, cause they pay the bills, tbh. Simple , really.

  2. #452
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    I apologize, a million times over, to every poster that frequents this forum if my stance came off as ANYTHING REMOTELY close to this. Sometimes you need to step back (way back) and view things objectively to realize what is going on - and while I sadly still agree with kaji157 that there is a "double standard" or some form of hypocrisy (which is admittedly within the rights of those involved), it pains me to think that others may have taken my POV as anything resembling this.

    kaji157, I'm sure you are a great person and you are obviously passionate about the Spurs (or at least about one of the Spurs' players) - but you might consider dialing it back down a few decibels. I like your intensity, but let's see if we can harness and control it.
    You did sound a tad bit like him. Any time you start throwing out the word hypocritical, you are being a little accusatory of wrong-doing, or unfairness. And, I think it is pretty clear the conditions were totally different, so the definition of hypocrisy doesn't even apply to The Spurs. But, as you acknowledge, employers do have rights under employee-employer agreements, just like employees do, and The Spurs are just exercising those rights. The absolute worst that can be said is that they are being too cold and calculating, and not being respectful of Manu as a friend and family member that should afford him rights above and beyond their contract, but I am sure that they were even that, too, until push came to shove. I am sure they have attempted to be as gingerly with him as possible. But, he was playing hard ball, so they had to raise their play. He did not afford them that courtesy many times over - to say - I know I have the RIGHT to play this summer, against your wishes, but I won't, just 'cuz we're pals. He exercised his right to play, against Spur wishes, time and time again. This time, Manu wanted The Spurs to take all the risk. Now that the risk is on him, he is opting not to play. That's a little -made, right there, after all the ing about the Spurs doctors in the media, and his deep, deep emotions about playing with the NT, etc. I would have had more respect for him if he would have gone ahead and retired and played, or played and lost all or part of his 7 million in arbitration, or whatever, but now that he opts out of playing when the financial risk is shifted from The Spurs, to him, that is the most hypocritical thing that has occurred in this whole fiasco.

  3. #453
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    You did sound a tad bit like him. Any time you start throwing out the word hypocritical, you are being a little accusatory of wrong-doing, or unfairness. And, I think it is pretty clear the conditions were totally different, so the definition of hypocrisy doesn't even apply to The Spurs. But, as you acknowledge, employers do have rights under employee-employer agreements, just like employees do, and The Spurs are just exercising those rights. The absolute worst that can be said is that they are being too cold and calculating, and not being respectful of Manu as a friend and family member that should afford him rights above and beyond their contract, but I am sure that they were even that, too, until push came to shove. I am sure they have attempted to be as gingerly with him as possible. But, he was playing hard ball, so they had to raise their play. He did not afford them that courtesy many times over - to say - I know I have the RIGHT to play this summer, against your wishes, but I won't, just 'cuz we're pals. He exercised his right to play, against Spur wishes, time and time again. This time, Manu wanted The Spurs to take all tuhe risk. Now that the risk is on him, he is opting not to play. That's a little -made, right there, after all the ing about the Spurs doctors in the media, and his deep, deep emotions about playing with the NT, etc. I would have had more respect for him if he would have gone ahead and retired and played, or played and lost all or part of his 7 million in arbitration, or whatever, but now that he opts out of playing when the financial risk is shifted from The Spurs, to him, that is the most hypocritical thing that has occurred in this whole fiasco.
    It's not a question of financial responsibility. He can't play, even if he wants to. FIBA would literally not let him take the Court, because of their agreement with the NBA.

  4. #454
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    It's not a question of financial responsibility. He can't play, even if he wants to. FIBA would literally not let him take the Court, because of their agreement with the NBA.
    Does the agreement cover retired NBA players?

  5. #455
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Does the agreement cover retired NBA players?
    Since he hasn't dropped the paperwork, it's academic. If he were to do so now, I think FIBA may look on it with a jaundiced eye, thinking it was just a ploy to get out of their jurisdiction for the duration of the WC.

  6. #456
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    Since he hasn't dropped the paperwork, it's academic. If he were to do so now, I think FIBA may look on it with a jaundiced eye, thinking it was just a ploy to get out of their jurisdiction for the duration of the WC.
    Surely. But, through jaundiced eyes or not, unless even retired NBA players are verboten, they would probably have little recourse. They, like Manu and The Spurs, are accountable to the rules. Since he hasn't dropped the paperwork is exactly my point. If it would have allowed him to play, he should have, based upon his behavior. Now, if it wouldn't have done any good for him to retire, he would still have been refused by FIBA, then he gets a pass, but until I hear otherwise, I'll assume it was a nuclear option he refused to consider, and his 7 million dollars was important enough to make it swing the balance against that decision.

  7. #457
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Surely. But, through jaundiced eyes or not, unless even retired NBA players are verboten, they would probably have little recourse. They, like Manu and The Spurs, are accountable to the rules. Since he hasn't dropped the paperwork is exactly my point. If it would have allowed him to play, he should have, based upon his behavior. Now, if It wouldn't have done any good for him to retire, he would still have been refused by FIBA, then he gets a pass, but until I hear otherwise, I'll assume it was a nuclear option he refused to consider, and his 7 million dollars was important enough to make it swing the balance against that decision.
    It's actually more than "his 7 million"... it's basically his pro career, at least in the NBA. Retiring doesn't remove the Spurs rights over him, unless the Spurs choose to decline his cap hold. What that means is he can't 'unretire' later on and go play for another NBA team. In other words, unless he had his mind set of saying goodbye to the NBA over this, he had no realistic way to cir vent the Spur's decision.

  8. #458
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    Also, if he was willing to stick to his guns and retire, there may have been other options even including permission yielded by RC for him to play, and go out in a manner of his choosing, playing FIBA, and retiring September 20. I am not so sure that RC would have wanted a toxic Manu on the team, or a public relations nightmare where they refused to let him play even though he was retiring. There may be several scenarios where he could have forced their hand...but he didn't want to. He wants to play next year with his Spur teammates, and collect his paycheck. He just didn't want to accept the rules and conditions under which he agreed to do so. He is probably my favorite player all-time, but he has some culpability here. It's a tiny mistake. It won't sully his memory, but he went a little overboard with the drama.

  9. #459
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    It's actually more than "his 7 million"... it's basically his pro career, at least in the NBA. Retiring doesn't remove the Spurs rights over him, unless the Spurs choose to decline his cap hold. What that means is he can't 'unretire' later on and go play for another NBA team. In other words, unless he had his mind set of saying goodbye to the NBA over this, he had no realistic way to cir vent the Spur's decision.
    When I say retire from the NBA, I meant retire. If all this passion is legit, do it. He was on the verge of retirement, anyway, now you're acting like he would be giving up another 2-3 year deal with Dallas or something. I guess if we get over this little snafu with him, we can expect him to sign another 2-3 year deal with us, as he's got a lot more in him before retirement than I have been led to believe for the last year or two.

  10. #460
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    When I say retire from the NBA, I meant retire. If all this passion is legit, do it. He was on the verge of retirement, anyway, now you're acting like he would be giving up another 2-3 year deal with Dallas or something. I guess if we get over this little snafu with him, we can expect him to sign another 2-3 year deal with us, as he's got a lot more in him before retirement than I have been led to believe for the last year or two.
    IMO, he has a few more years in him at a high level, barring some big injury... I expect him to keep going if Tim keeps on going too...

    I just think he would actually do retire from the NBA if it's not the Spurs.

  11. #461
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    IMO, he has a few more years in him at a high level, barring some big injury... I expect him to keep going if Tim keeps on going too...

    I just think he would actually do retire from the NBA if it's not the Spurs.
    Yeah. They're tight. Pretty awesome to watch. This situation excepted.

  12. #462
    Spurs or nothing spurspokesman's Avatar
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    Manu didnt want to play, this was CIA Pop's way of getting him out of international play without him catching any flack

  13. #463
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    You did sound a tad bit like him. Any time you start throwing out the word hypocritical, you are being a little accusatory of wrong-doing, or unfairness. And, I think it is pretty clear the conditions were totally different, so the definition of hypocrisy doesn't even apply to The Spurs. But, as you acknowledge, employers do have rights under employee-employer agreements, just like employees do, and The Spurs are just exercising those rights. The absolute worst that can be said is that they are being too cold and calculating, and not being respectful of Manu as a friend and family member that should afford him rights above and beyond their contract, but I am sure that they were even that, too, until push came to shove. I am sure they have attempted to be as gingerly with him as possible. But, he was playing hard ball, so they had to raise their play. He did not afford them that courtesy many times over - to say - I know I have the RIGHT to play this summer, against your wishes, but I won't, just 'cuz we're pals. He exercised his right to play, against Spur wishes, time and time again. This time, Manu wanted The Spurs to take all the risk. Now that the risk is on him, he is opting not to play. That's a little -made, right there, after all the ing about the Spurs doctors in the media, and his deep, deep emotions about playing with the NT, etc. I would have had more respect for him if he would have gone ahead and retired and played, or played and lost all or part of his 7 million in arbitration, or whatever, but now that he opts out of playing when the financial risk is shifted from The Spurs, to him, that is the most hypocritical thing that has occurred in this whole fiasco.
    Trying to explain matters of the hear with numbers is not possible for me or anyone.
    I am as strong spurs fan as i am for Argentina.
    Manu hapens to play for both.
    I just have a lot of crying to do this winter (here) because of the Spurs le (tears of joy for the history they have together) and with the WC Final with Argentina (tears of regret). What you americans do not understand is that international compe ion is for us in argentina way bigger than clubs (or franchises) compe ion. and here the first are above the latter.
    If a player plays injuried for his club it is expected to continue playing for his country. Simple as that, and that is how it could be in 90% of the times. The NBA is the only association that is allowed to prohibit players from playing fo their countries.
    You (americans) will never understand this things because your NT usually do not represent you. But ours do.

  14. #464
    Veteran bigfan's Avatar
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    I feel bad for the Argentine fans but Manu made his decision long ago to be a professional basketball player and as such has to follow the rules to earn the money. Im sure Argentina has plenty of talent to develop younger players and maybe Manu can be part of the coaching process. All in all, the right decision for everyone.

  15. #465
    Chillin' like a villain... TampaDude's Avatar
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    Manu is injured, so he can't play for the ANT. The Spurs are writing the checks, so the Spurs are calling the shots.

  16. #466
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    On World Futbol, no team may prohibit or in contract or injury to go with his national team, only in united states!

    In the Argentina national soccer team of Brazil were the world to injured players and played well.

    the nba is wrong to ban their players represent their country.

  17. #467
    Rum and Coke SupremeGuy's Avatar
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  18. #468
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    Trying to explain matters of the hear with numbers is not possible for me or anyone.
    I am as strong spurs fan as i am for Argentina.
    Manu hapens to play for both.
    I just have a lot of crying to do this winter (here) because of the Spurs le (tears of joy for the history they have together) and with the WC Final with Argentina (tears of regret). What you americans do not understand is that international compe ion is for us in argentina way bigger than clubs (or franchises) compe ion. and here the first are above the latter.
    If a player plays injuried for his club it is expected to continue playing for his country. Simple as that, and that is how it could be in 90% of the times. The NBA is the only association that is allowed to prohibit players from playing fo their countries.
    You (americans) will never understand this things because your NT usually do not represent you. But ours do.
    You contradict yourself...and it is obvious you are a bigger fan of Manu and Argentina than you are of The Spurs. You just admitted it to us...admit it to yourself, and be done with it.

    Your schtick about "you guys just don't understand" is old and tired. We understand perfectly. That just isn't our problem. Sorry you want him to play this year. He isn't. You got your way many other times, you don't get it this time. End of story.

  19. #469
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    On World Futbol, no team may prohibit or in contract or injury to go with his national team, only in united states!

    In the Argentina national soccer team of Brazil were the world to injured players and played well.

    the nba is wrong to ban their players represent their country.
    No, international players and fans are wrong for signing contracts to agree to these rules, then crying like little es during the ONE time that the team exercises their rights...after Manu used the contract to his advantage for years. Criticize Manu for leaving Argentina for the money, not The Spurs for offering it, and having it accepted.

  20. #470
    Believe. ManuGinobiliArg's Avatar
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    No, international players and fans are wrong for signing contracts to agree to these rules, then crying like little es during the ONE time that the team exercises their rights...after Manu used the contract to his advantage for years. Criticize Manu for leaving Argentina for the money, not The Spurs for offering it, and having it accepted.
    I understand what you say, so FIFA requires players to teams representing their country or if it is not an issue Spurs NBA should implement.

    In any sport in the world in any team you are prohibited his players represent their country.

    is something that the United States and the nba should try.

  21. #471
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    You contradict yourself...and it is obvious you are a bigger fan of Manu and Argentina than you are of The Spurs. You just admitted it to us...admit it to yourself, and be done with it.

    Your schtick about "you guys just don't understand" is old and tired. We understand perfectly. That just isn't our problem. Sorry you want him to play this year. He isn't. You got your way many other times, you don't get it this time. End of story.
    No i dont. I say one thing first then i explain how it is views from an Argentine point of view.
    I just believe in probabilities, and i think Ginobili injured with argentina only once in more than 10 compe ions, all of them he always had something here or there.
    This is not about the injury, if it were The Spurs would have waited as the 76ers did with Nocioni at Turkeys world cup when they rechecked the last test he had and ruled him out 2 days before the world cup.
    The Spurs are ignoring any further testing.
    So clearly is not about the injury, they want Manu to rest, if they were only concerned about the injury they might as well send a doctor to argentina and check, which they didnt.

  22. #472
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    Why Ginobli flees SA and its brown homies every summer and lives in a "bunker" his words in quotation not mine, mentality during Spurs season

    http://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-...cience-1289381


  23. #473
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    The rule is already what you want, EXCEPT in the case of injury. But, your pe ioning for even that exception to be changed is within your rights, but let's put it into perspective. It is your opinion that it should be changed because you are LESS of a fan of the NBA. Those of us that are predominantly fans of the NBA may have an opposite opinion, about that exception, and might even prefer that even more limits be put on international play. So, just because you think it "should" be done, because it serves your interests, don't forget that there are plenty of people that would like to roll it back the other way and place a lot more limits on international players. I DON'T think they should change it, because it serves my interest to have The Spurs have at least a LITTLE control, control they've only been able to assert once in 10+ years, or so, with Manu. So, we can have a discussion about changing the rule, but that would be for future generations of players. I am fairly content with the status quo. But, if you want to open a debate, I would be happy to argue to put more limits on international players. This isn't soccer.
    Last edited by littlecoyotecoin; 08-01-2014 at 11:08 AM.

  24. #474
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    No i dont. I say one thing first then i explain how it is views from an Argentine point of view.
    I just believe in probabilities, and i think Ginobili injured with argentina only once in more than 10 compe ions, all of them he always had something here or there.
    This is not about the injury, if it were The Spurs would have waited as the 76ers did with Nocioni at Turkeys world cup when they rechecked the last test he had and ruled him out 2 days before the world cup.
    The Spurs are ignoring any further testing.
    So clearly is not about the injury, they want Manu to rest, if they were only concerned about the injury they might as well send a doctor to argentina and check, which they didnt.
    No you don't what? You CLEARLY just said that play for the national team is more important than club play. Clearly. You don't live in reality. There is no way to spin that. Your probabilities are bad, too. You are equating all the 10 previous chances for injury equally with this one, when he already has a fractured leg. Probability for reinjury is dramatically higher, and the presence of the injury is the very excuse that allows The Spurs to deny him permission to play...so OF COURSE it's about the injury, but it is also about his age. He was not 37 the previous 10 times he played. He didn't have a fractured leg the previous ten times. He did have an injury that got worse during international play, and forced him to sit out, and have surgery, BECAUSE he didn't rest. And, that happened when he was YOUNGER. So, again, OF COURSE it's about the injury. If he was NOT injured, The Spurs wouldn't even have a say in the matter. So, again, OF COURSE it's about the injury.

    Regarding testing at a later date, that is the only valid point you've made. But, I don't think we have enough information about why a test isn't being done at the last minute. The Spurs medical staff may have all the information they need, from the tests that have been done, and having another test done in a week or two won't make a difference. Of course, you will cite some Argentinian newspaper that claims differently, but, they don't get to make the decision. Personally, I am with you. I can agree on that. I think they should give him the benefit of the doubt, and do another test at the last minute, to show that it still isn't fully healed. If it shows that it is inconclusive or still broken, then he sits...and they can say that they did what they could to approve him...

    But, likely what happened, is Manu experienced pain when he practiced, which is what has been reported, and that is why a third test isn't being done...there is pain evidence that the injury isn't healed...and everyone is aware of that, now.

  25. #475
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Manu didnt want to play, this was CIA Pop's way of getting him out of international play without him catching any flack
    I don't think it's so crazy. I mean Pop took all the flak for firing Bob Hill to keep Robinson and AJ from being labelled coach killers.

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