Foundational Falshoods of Creationism

[spurraider21]

Translation: "I just want to confirm what I already concluded a long time ago and put my mind to sleep.It is just too much work to keep an open mind and discover truth - I would rather be a robot and keep my mind on cruise control."

not really. its not like xmas' answer will alter or affect my beliefs. this whole time i've just been trying to get an understanding of his beliefs. he's been quite coy about it.

he's been claiming he doesnt believe the events literally occurred, but doesn't believe they're fictional. it doesn't add up

[xmas1997]

your words "I don't think anything in the bible happened in a literal sense"


if the events didn't happen "in a literal sense" then they simply didn't happen. and if they didn't happen, that makes the stories fiction. i'm really not sure how this isn't getting through to you. "literary style" or anything else is completely irrelevant to this point, yet you keep mentioning it for some odd reason

I keep mentioning it and giving examples purely for your sake because it seems to be going over your heads. You just don't "get", or refuse to accept the type of writing IMHO the bible was written in.

Any high school student could grasp these literary styles while maybe not their symbolism.
You refuse to accept the possibility that something could occur symbolically and still be real unless it was tangible and material, thus you are stuck with this fixation that only those things or events that are literal, are real.
Is love real or imaginary, is hope real or imaginary?

[Chinook]

Just let Al soothe the hurt feelings with his soulful voice.

[spurraider21]

I keep mentioning it and giving examples purely for your sake because it seems to be going over your heads. You just don't "get", or refuse to accept the type of writing IMHO the bible was written in.

Any high school student could grasp these literary styles while maybe not their symbolism.
You refuse to accept the possibility that something could occur symbolically and still be real unless it was tangible and material, thus you are stuck with this fixation that only those things or events that are literal, are real.
Is love real or imaginary, is hope real or imaginary?

we aren't talking about an abstract idea like love... i'm talking (in this case) about the actual act of a god speaking to abraham, instructing him to kill his son... this is something that either occurred or not. you said you don't believe anything in the bible happened in a literal sense. thus the actual, earthly act of god telling abraham to kill his son, according to the bolded quote, is not something you think actually occured. thus that event is fictional

[silverblk mystix]

not really. its not like xmas' answer will alter or affect my beliefs. this whole time i've just been trying to get an understanding of his beliefs. he's been quite coy about it.

he's been claiming he doesnt believe the events literally occurred, but doesn't believe they're fictional. it doesn't add up

But it doesn't make him wrong - and you are implying that - and you appear to be in cahoots with the trolls in the thread who have no interest whatsoever in learning anything, sharing anything, discovering anything.

Their sole purpose is to ridicule, confirm their own inaccurate conclusions, troll, lie, distort, condescend, etc...

Xmas has been more than open and honest and respectful - yet - this is just something that means nothing to trolls.


Why are you suddenly jumping on the troll bandwagon?


The scriptures are merely a guide, a handbook, an example, a teaching tool to grasp some of the planet's mysteries.

Some people believe certain writings and take comfort in them, study them, try to interpret them, understand them.

Some of the events are allegorical. Some are factual. Some are embellished. Some are interpreted and re-interpreted wrongly or inaccurately.

Some events happened and then a LOT was lost in translation. Some seem impossible and probably are - but yet - they had meaningful messages and meaningful teachings - even if the event itself was exaggerated or misinterpreted.


But you know and knew all this - why the dishonest game?

[xmas1997]

thank you. I appreciate the answer.

At least you can understand with an open mind and see the possibilities involved here because you know that God has no limitations when it comes to the finite or anything else for that matter.
We may not agree on everything, but what we do agree on is His Existence and His ability to be far beyond our measly abilities to understand Him.

[xmas1997]

But it doesn't make him wrong - and you are implying that - and you appear to be in cahoots with the trolls in the thread who have no interest whatsoever in learning anything, sharing anything, discovering anything.

Their sole purpose is to ridicule, confirm their own inaccurate conclusions, troll, lie, distort, condescend, etc...

Xmas has been more than open and honest and respectful - yet - this is just something that means nothing to trolls.


Why are you suddenly jumping on the troll bandwagon?


The scriptures are merely a guide, a handbook, an example, a teaching tool to grasp some of the planet's mysteries.

Some people believe certain writings and take comfort in them, study them, try to interpret them, understand them.

Some of the events are allegorical. Some are factual. Some are embellished. Some are interpreted and re-interpreted wrongly or inaccurately.

Some events happened and then a LOT was lost in translation. Some seem impossible and probably are - but yet - they had meaningful messages and meaningful teachings - even if the event itself was exaggerated or misinterpreted.


But you know and knew all this - why the dishonest game?

IMHO God is the ultimate paradox, the Mother of all paradoxes.
The real reason these contentious idiots do not understand, is because they refuse to open their minds to possibilities beyond what their five senses tell them.
They know not what they do, they are living in a dream world, and they refuse to wake up.

I know they are playing child games, they are too obvious, but I'm glad someone else besides Rob understands the games they are playing.
Yet I will continue to try to answer their questions because they cannot hurt me in the slightest, and the more they post their ridiculous preposterous claims, the more they reveal their ignorance.

But eventually this stuff sinks in and grows roots. The soil may be infertile, but nothing is impossible, so maybe not today, or tomorrow, or even next year, it won't occur to them, but they won't be able to suppress the truth forever.
So I have nothing to lose by explaining what I know.
And I sure as don't have all the answers, I am learning everyday how little I actually do know.
And I greatly appreciate learning what I have still yet to learn, and even a troll might shed some light when least expected.

Rob, knows lots more than what he is willing to share as well. Thankfully he keeps an open mind, and so do you.
This is why I enjoy discussing this with the two of you.

RG also knows more than what he lets on, and I suspect plays the "devils' advocate" to spark insight, not only in others, but also within himself.

But beyond all of that, you are bluntly accurate of your assessment of most of the others here.

[spurraider21]

xmas, you either believe the events occurred or they didnt. if they did occur, then the bible is "literally" accurate. if they didn't occur, they are merely allegorical and are thus fictional (in the context of our discussion)

[spurraider21]

But it doesn't make him wrong - and you are implying that - and you appear to be in cahoots with the trolls in the thread who have no interest whatsoever in learning anything, sharing anything, discovering anything.

Their sole purpose is to ridicule, confirm their own inaccurate conclusions, troll, lie, distort, condescend, etc...

Xmas has been more than open and honest and respectful - yet - this is just something that means nothing to trolls.


Why are you suddenly jumping on the troll bandwagon?


The scriptures are merely a guide, a handbook, an example, a teaching tool to grasp some of the planet's mysteries.

Some people believe certain writings and take comfort in them, study them, try to interpret them, understand them.

Some of the events are allegorical. Some are factual. Some are embellished. Some are interpreted and re-interpreted wrongly or inaccurately.

Some events happened and then a LOT was lost in translation. Some seem impossible and probably are - but yet - they had meaningful messages and meaningful teachings - even if the event itself was exaggerated or misinterpreted.


But you know and knew all this - why the dishonest game?

i can't be "right" or "wrong" i'm just trying to get a clear understanding of his beliefs. if he claims he doesn't think the events of the bible literally happened, then simply by definition, he must believe they are fictional. allegory/symbolism/"literary style" are completely irrelevant to that simple point. if they didn't actually, factually, historically occur, they are by definition fictional.

if he doesn't believe that the tales are fictional, then he must believe that they occurred literally, which contradicts what he's been saying. i'm just trying to clarify. its impossible to have a discussion about it if i don't first understand where he's coming from, but he keeps riding the fence, claiming he doesn't believe the events occurred, yet also claiming that they aren't fiction.

if you read my conversation with robdiaz earlier in the thread, you'd see i'm not trolling but i'm legitimately interested in having a civil discussion. xmas is just making it impossible to do so

[Brazil]

52

looks like a new moon fake landing thread

[Blake]

I disagree.

Neat.

[Blake]

Who are you to say and judge what is silly or not when it comes to God, do you know His purposes?
Who said it was "not allowed", you?

So you are saying that man CANNOT up a work of GOD?
Then how do you explain what man has done to the earth so far?
Your contention is preposterous because the bible does say that we have free will, so in essence we are free to believe what we want, and screw up what God has created.

I can only "partially" agree to your second to last sentence, He created "time" so time is as much part of Him as it isn't, plus He always was, always is, and always will be.

You need to do some further research on the concept of "free will".

God isn't allowed to have contradictions and paradoxes because perfection requires it.

"free will" is a sidebar, but since you bring it up, it's also a holy paradox.

[xmas1997]

we aren't talking about an abstract idea like love... i'm talking (in this case) about the actual act of a god speaking to abraham, instructing him to kill his son... this is something that either occurred or not. you said you don't believe anything in the bible happened in a literal sense. thus the actual, earthly act of god telling abraham to kill his son, according to the bolded quote, is not something you think actually occured. thus that event is fictional

Ah ha, now we are getting somewhere. You agree that love and hope are "abstract" ideas.
What I have been trying all this time, and failing miserably by the way, is to get you to suspend your beliefs long enough to see that some things are abstract and unknowable in black and white terms.
You keep saying that the story of abraham was "actual", but what if it wasn't?
What if it were symbolic of something much more abstract and unknowable, until man had evolved to a point of being able to understand it?
This is why I keep saying that it is not necessarily fiction, even though I do not believe it to be literal, it just "appears to be" on the surface at first impression.
Man had no idea of atomic structure until recently in the long existence of mankind, until then, it wasn't even a conception, much less a consideration.
That is what I believe these stories to be, "symbolic concepts" rather than factual or fictional stories that on the cursory surface has a different appearance than what they truly are, and thus we as of yet do not have anything but a childlike naivety or understanding.
Although there are probably some out there who do understand.
I sincerely hope this helps.

[Blake]

IMHO God is the ultimate paradox, the Mother of all paradoxes.
The real reason these contentious idiots do not understand, is because they refuse to open their minds to possibilities beyond what their five senses tell them.

Lol

I can make up stuff too.

like what if we aren't the only earth out there? like what if Jesus dies on crosses over and over again for humans living across the universe?

[Blake]

And if God is am ultimate paradox, why waste time on him

[spurraider21]

Ah ha, now we are getting somewhere. You agree that love and hope are "abstract" ideas.
What I have been trying all this time, and failing miserably by the way, is to get you to suspend your beliefs long enough to see that some things are abstract and unknowable in black and white terms.
You keep saying that the story of abraham was "actual", but what if it wasn't?
What if it were symbolic of something much more abstract and unknowable, until man had evolved to a point of being able to understand it?
This is why I keep saying that it is not necessarily fiction, even though I do not believe it to be literal, it just "appears to be" on the surface at first impression.
Man had no idea of atomic structure until recently in the long existence of mankind, until then, it wasn't even a conception, much less a consideration.
That is what I believe these stories to be, "symbolic concepts" rather than factual or fictional stories that on the cursory surface has a different appearance than what they truly are, and thus we as of yet do not have anything but a childlike naivety or understanding.
Although there are probably some out there who do understand.
I sincerely hope this helps.

love is an emotion. it isn't tangible. it can't be recorded or measured (yet. with further advances we can be able to more accurately map emotions on the brain, perhaps measure them via chemical levels, balances, etc). the event of God speaking to Abraham does not qualify as such. it is not abstract.

you have made it clear that you don't believe the tale of Abraham factually happened. that would make it fiction

[xmas1997]

Lol

I can make up stuff too.

like what if we aren't the only earth out there? like what if Jesus dies on crosses over and over again for humans living across the universe?

What if he does?

Can you say anything for sure?

Do you know everything?

And how do you know for sure that you are making up, but rather some greater en y is not pulling your puppet strings?

How do you know your tiny reality, is the same as everybody's tiny reality?

Do you even realize that everything is made up of energy and "connected" to each other on that subatomic plain?

And if so, how long have you known this, since you were 7, for example?

This is more in and out there than your, or my, five senses are aware of IMHO.
But you are welcome to keep going along on your blindly accepting way if that is what makes you happy.

[Blake]

What if he does?

Can you say anything for sure?

Do you know everything?

And how do you know for sure that you are making up, but rather some greater en y is not pulling your puppet strings?

How do you know your tiny reality, is the same as everybody's tiny reality?

Do you even realize that everything is made up of energy and "connected" to each other on that subatomic plain?

And if so, how long have you known this, since you were 7, for example?

This is more in and out there than your, or my, five senses are aware of IMHO.
But you are welcome to keep going along on your blindly accepting way if that is what makes you happy.

Spaghetti monster reasoning

[Blake]

Do you believe in the resurrection story or not

Yes or no

[xmas1997]

Spaghetti monster reasoning

^^^Loony tunes troll logic.^^^
I guess I am supposed to answer your questions, but you don't have to answer mine.
No surprise, you're so predictable.

[xmas1997]

love is an emotion. it isn't tangible. it can't be recorded or measured (yet. with further advances we can be able to more accurately map emotions on the brain, perhaps measure them via chemical levels, balances, etc). the event of God speaking to Abraham does not qualify as such. it is not abstract.

you have made it clear that you don't believe the tale of Abraham factually happened. that would make it fiction

I ask again, how do you know for sure it isn't factual, fictional, or something beyond or in between both?
What makes you so sure that it isn't what I am proposing, purely symbolical?

[xmas1997]

Do you believe in the resurrection story or not

Yes or no

Are you 13, 14, or 15, which is it?

[xmas1997]

Spaghetti monster reasoning

^This is what you really wanted to do all along. ^
You are so predictable.
Plus it is why I rarely give you a civil answer anymore.
You're just playing a kiddie game.
This is all you ever do.

[spurraider21]

I ask again, how do you know for sure it isn't factual, fictional, or something beyond or in between both?
What makes you so sure that it isn't what I am proposing, purely symbolical?

i'm asking for YOUR BELIEF. i'm not claiming i know these things as facts. i can't have a conversation with you if i dont have a grasp of your beliefs.

do YOU BELIEVE the story of abraham actually, factually happened. from your previous comments, the answer appears to be "no." if that is the case, and you believe that the events didnt occur, then it stands to reason that you believe those events are fictional.

[silverblk mystix]

And if God is am ultimate paradox, why waste time on him

lol

referring to "god" as "him"


as if "god" were something "separate" from you, from me, from the earth, from the universe", and as if you reached this conclusion and were arrogant enough to believe you were even close...


what a blind arrogant fool you are and I gave you truth in my last post to you and you could not even respond to it because it was irrefutable.