NBA: Kevin Love is a top 10 player in the NBA,,,,

[ElNono]

Exactly. However, how many effective perimeter playing Power Forwards have been around since Dirk first came in?

Not sure. Bosh also changed his game a bit to be a stretch guy too... but he has the complete package inside and he's just a much smarter player/defender.

[SpursFan86]

Okay, let's compare Love's numbers to another all-time great offensive big who scored a lot from the perimeter: Dirk

Dirk's career TS% = 58.2, career eFG% = 51.4%

And why are you acting like Love never goes in the post? He's not some spot-up shooter that just sits at the 3-point line all game. He has a solid post game and definitely draws double teams regularly. He's not Hakeem or Kareem (no ), but you're really selling him short here.

[ElNono]

Well first off, Minnesota was a weird team last year. If you look at SRS (which is generally a good indicator of how good a team is), Minnesota was a top 10 team. They had a better point differential than teams like Dallas, Memphis, and Phoenix. However they were really unlucky in close games (like, all-time levels of unlucky) and lost a bunch of games they should've won. Sure, part of this can be attributed to Love, but it'd be dumb to just dump all of the blame on him. He was the biggest reason they were even in the game in the first place. Imagine a player carrying a team for 40 minutes of the game, and then in the last 5 minutes he wears down and plays below his standards. He shouldn't get a complete free pass, but he shouldn't be labeled some choking loser either. If he didn't play so well in the first 3 quarters, his team wouldn't have even been in position to win. You can win games in the 2nd or 3rd quarter. We saw it in the Finals...the Spurs huge 3rd quarter in Game 5 was what won them that game.

Minnesota's starting unit had a DRTG of 105, which would've been good for 10th in the league in 2014. They were a solid defensive unit. The bench was decent as well defensively, but they were absolutely horrible on offense once Love and Rubio went out. As those numbers show, the offense fell apart when the starters went to the bench.

But the starters did play the bulk of the minutes... like I pointed out, no starter averaged under 30mpg. The bench on the other hand, the top minute getter was barely over 20 mpg (20.7 IIRC, don't have the numbers in front of me anymore).
They were actually very top heavy. Love played almost twice as many minutes as Barea, the 2nd top minute getter off the bench.

I would agree it's weird. That's why I said it's easy to stat pad on bad teams, but stat pad on an average team and still miss the playoffs? Weird.

[SpursFan86]

But the starters did play the bulk of the minutes... like I pointed out, no starter averaged under 30mpg. The bench on the other hand, the top minute getter was barely over 20 mpg (20.7 IIRC, don't have the numbers in front of me anymore).
They were actually very top heavy. Love played almost twice as many minutes as Barea, the 2nd top minute getter off the bench.

I think you underestimate how quickly a lead can fall apart when a new unit comes in. We've (well, most of us) been watching the Spurs all year long. How many times would the bench come in and completely change the game around by going on an offensive explosion in a matter of just 4-5 minutes? In the Portland series, we'd always blow games open in the early 2nd quarter because Portland would send out their ty-ass bench and get demolished...and that was with them playing shortened playoff rotations. It doesn't take long for a basketball game to be won or lost. One second it's a tie game and then 2 minutes later you're down by 10 and having to dig yourself out of a hole for the rest of the game.

Just imagine the opposite of our bench. Instead of Minnesota's bench coming in and providing an offensive spark, they come in and the offense goes to . They have a 3-4 minute drought, and suddenly Minnesota's lead is gone or what was once a tied game is now a 10 point deficit.

[djohn2oo8]

Okay, let's compare Love's numbers to another all-time great offensive big who scored a lot from the perimeter: Dirk

Dirk's career TS% = 58.2, career eFG% = 51.4%

And why are you acting like Love never goes in the post? He's not some spot-up shooter that just sits at the 3-point line all game. He has a solid post game and definitely draws double teams regularly. He's not Hakeem or Kareem (no ), but you're really selling him short here.

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

[ElNono]

I think you underestimate how quickly a lead can fall apart when a new unit comes in. We've (well, most of us) been watching the Spurs all year long. How many times would the bench come in and completely change the game around by going on an offensive explosion in a matter of just 4-5 minutes? In the Portland series, we'd always blow games open in the early 2nd quarter because Portland would send out their ty-ass bench and get demolished...and that was with them playing shortened playoff rotations. It doesn't take long for a basketball game to be won or lost. One second it's a tie game and then 2 minutes later you're down by 10 and having to dig yourself out of a hole for the rest of the game.

Just imagine the opposite of our bench. Instead of Minnesota's bench coming in and providing an offensive spark, they come in and the offense goes to . They have a 3-4 minute drought, and suddenly Minnesota's lead is gone or what was once a tied game is now a 10 point deficit.

Except the bench defensive rating is just as good as the starters (top 10 you said?). That's why it doesn't add up. I mean, love averaged 36 mpg... that's only 12 minutes the cover for.

[SpursFan86]

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

Compare Love's numbers last year to Dirk's best year...they're not that far off. And Dirk was an MVP candidate and top 20 player of all-time. I'm not saying Love is better or as good as Dirk either...just pointing out that a 59 TS% and 52 eFG% is nowhere close to being horrendous.

Anyways, post your top 10 players. I'm truly curious to see the list. I'd imagine they're all flawless players considering how harshly you're judging Love.

[ElNono]

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

crofl

[SpursFan86]

Except the bench defensive rating is just as good as the starters (top 10 you said?). That's why it doesn't add up. I mean, love averaged 36 mpg... that's only 12 minutes the cover for.

I already said that the bench was decent defensively. Horrible offense + average defense = still a horrible bench.

And let's assume Love's typical minute distribution goes something like:

1st: 11 minutes
2nd: 7 minutes
3rd: 11 minutes
4th: 7 minutes

That would mean the bench is likely in for ~6 minutes at a time for two separate intervals. That's plenty of time to piss away a lead and make your team face a hefty deficit.

[SpursFan86]

crofl

Those aren't even the right numbers lol. Love averaged 6.6 3PA last year. Dirk's career high is 4.9. So Love took what, one a half more 3s per game than Dirk? Don't see the huge deal.

And lol at "only a 37% shooter"...is that supposed to be bad now? Harden shot 36.6 % from 3 last year.

[ElNono]

I already said that the bench was decent defensively. Horrible offense + average defense = still a horrible bench.

And let's assume Love's typical minute distribution goes something like:

1st: 11 minutes
2nd: 7 minutes
3rd: 11 minutes
4th: 7 minutes

That would mean the bench is likely in for ~6 minutes at a time for two separate intervals. That's plenty of time to piss away a lead and make your team face a hefty deficit.

It just doesn't add up. If the bench is a "top 10 defense", then sucking on offense for 12 out of 48 minutes, shouldn't put you in a huge hole.

What was the differential in your stat? 10pts per 100 possession?

Those aren't even the right numbers lol. Love averaged 6.6 3PA last year. Dirk's career high is 4.9. So Love took what, one a half more 3s per game than Dirk? Don't see the huge deal.

And lol at "only a 37% shooter"...is that supposed to be bad now? Harden shot 36.6 % from 3 last year.

I just can't even put Love and Dirk in the same conversation, tbh... Dirk is a guy that was criticized a lot for the same things Love is, but Dirk has also always been a go-to guy, and he never shied away from it, leading his team to two NBA Finals and winning one.

Love just isn't anywhere near that tier right now.

[Arcadian]

Yeah, as much as people try to do it, you cannot easily pigeonhole Love as a "perimeter player" or a "traditional power forward" or anything else. He's a good all-around player, but his skillset defies typical categorization.

[Chinook]

1) DRTG is a horrible measure of defensive ability. It's heavily based on team defense + blocks/steals. Parker was ranked higher than Bowen several times according to DRTG IIRC, and their career averages are very similar (Parker = 104, Bowen = 102)...no one in their right mind would say Parker was even remotely close to Bowen defensively though.

2) Lmao at 59.1 TS% and 52.4 eFG% being "horrendous" for a big man. That's flat-out wrong. Let's look at some all-time great offensive bigs and their career averages:

Kareem - 59.2 TS% and 55.9 eFG%

Karl Malone - 57.7 TS% and 51.8 eFG%

Hakeem - 55.3 TS% and 51.3 eFG%

3) Love's clutch stats are definitely a point of concern, but aren't nearly a big enough reason to knock him down from not even being a top 10 player in the league. People go overboard with the whole "clutchness" cliche.

1) I hate DRtg more than most, but you're misinterpreting it a bit. It also heavily includes defensive rebounds. That's why it's slanted strongly toward bigs. For Love to have a horrible DRtg in clutch situations is frankly disturbing, because his rebounds combined with Minny's team D should have given him an elite score like it did with Boozer recently. DRtg sucks because it can't pick out good man-defenders who don't make a ton of splash plays, but it can pick out horrible defensive bigs.

2) I like the idea of TS%, but I think onky has meaning when combined with USG%. That's just a general critique that has little to do with Love.

3) Eh, these lists are subjective as , and people can use a lot of different factors to rank players. I think a player being abysmal in the clutch is a a big deal. You can argue that Minny makes the dance last year if Love is even average in those situations.

[spurraider21]

EFG% and TS% give bonus points for 3 pointers (for obvious reasons) without also taking into consideration that a long miss (as all 3 pointers are) lead to easier transition buckets for the other end.

a 35% three point shooter/specialist isn't considered a good one, but in a vacuum would have a higher EFG% or TS% than a big man who shoots 50% from 2

[TDMVPDPOY]

Can't believe people are criticizing the efficiency of a player with a 59% TS, tbh..

It's not like he doesn't get inside the paint, too, the is the best rebounder in the NBA, he isn't Bargnani..

fck u on about, not playing defense and fighting own team mates to pad rebounds...thats what kg use to do on the wolves, is he not that confident his team mates cant go grab a rebound, make a basket or make a assists pass?

dude puts up meaningless stats, a big who loves to shoot 3s instead of scoring inside, his the only big who has more 3pt fga then any big in the league; he makes guys like antoine walker a scrub at chucking 3s

[Sec24Row7]

Compare Love's numbers last year to Dirk's best year...they're not that far off. And Dirk was an MVP candidate and top 20 player of all-time. I'm not saying Love is better or as good as Dirk either...just pointing out that a 59 TS% and 52 eFG% is nowhere close to being horrendous.

Anyways, post your top 10 players. I'm truly curious to see the list. I'd imagine they're all flawless players considering how harshly you're judging Love.

[Thread]

Yet another piss pot chicken from upstairs. This one an original piss pot chicken . I spit on you.

[Sec24Row7]

Yet another piss pot chicken from upstairs. This one an original piss pot chicken . I spit on you.

The funny thing is… Your post is actually more intelligent and better thought out than the one that said Dirk is a top 20 player of all time… So… Kudos.

[Thread]

The funny thing is… Your post is actually more intelligent and better thought out than the one that said Dirk is a top 20 player of all time… So… Kudos.

Packin' the paint--the lot of ya's--up 3.

lmfao!!!

[djohn2oo8]

EFG% and TS% give bonus points for 3 pointers (for obvious reasons) without also taking into consideration that a long miss (as all 3 pointers are) lead to easier transition buckets for the other end.

a 35% three point shooter/specialist isn't considered a good one, but in a vacuum would have a higher EFG% or TS% than a big man who shoots 50% from 2

This.

[djohn2oo8]

Here are the 25 players with the most win shares in their first six seasons not to reach the postseason (those who spent that entire time with one team in green):

[Sec24Row7]

Here are the 25 players with the most win shares in their first six seasons not to reach the postseason (those who spent that entire time with one team in green):

Man!

Look at all the Hall of Famers on that list!

Calling someone top 10 in the league who has never made the playoffs is just silly…

A team has never played him more than 2 times in a row… and has never had a chance or reason to build a strategy to contain him.

It's too soon.

[Killakobe81]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him?

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

Excellent post you used stats to back up a valid point. Jeez again with the stats obsession for some folks on here ... Over reliance on stats or simply looking at wins/losses are both foolish ways to determine Love's rank. You need to look at both and the "eye test". Some great points have been brought up on BOTH sides of the fence. But it's foolish to dismiss Love as an underrated stats padder when you look at his numbers and watch him play. Does he have his faults? Absolutely. But as posted above he is at least a mediocre or average defender and far from atrocious. Pau who so many love on here (no pun intended) was much worse on defense the past 4 years. Dirk after some improvement in that era (when he had quality defensive team-mates) has regressed as well. And you cant tell me Boozer is a much better defender than Love so i call bull on drating ..Also the Bulls version of Rodamn (if you watch closely) did the same thing Lobve is accused of ... leaving some of his defensive responsibilities early to position for rebounds ... but because he had MJ, Pipp and even Harper on defense to rotate and recover quickly...it did not hurt the team much if he failed to secure the board. And Rodman was considered the best defender of his generation (the Pistons version most definitely was, I think Spurs/Bulls version was overrated tbh)

Back to Kevin. I have seen Love play since college and lo and behold when he had Westbrook, Collison, Farmar etc as team-mates he led his team to success. And it's not like Howland is John wooden either. Love securing boards and making outlet passes to Kyrie and Lebron will be amazing. I had kind of hoped Wiggins would stay and they could pawn off Waiter/Bennett/Thompson plus picks. Love making those passes to Irving, James AND Wiggins would be amazing. Wiggins is overrated but he can run and jump and Love is a good passer in the half-court but might be the best outlet passer since Walton. His range will open up driving lanes for Kyrie, Waiters and Lebron and adding one of the best SF rebounders to Love and Verejao if he stays healthy and Cavs should corral most loose balls. I would think spur fans who value team play would appreciate Love more than most general NBA fans ...I wonder if some of the hate is fear?

Despite my desire to see Lebron mentor Wiggins ...this trade absolutely makes sense and puts Cavs in favored status to win a le. I am not saying they are better than the Spurs ... but their path to a le is certainly much easier. Only huge questions for Cavs:

1. Rim protection ... but the Heat won two les with less than stellar rim defenders/Anchors
2. this new coach ...I have heard great things and Spo won as an unproven coach doesnt hurt that he has Lebron (like Spo)
3. Can Kyrie thrive with two players that are better than him orchestrating the offense in key situations and can he thrive off the ball?
4. If Verejao is hurt not only due they lose what little rim rim protection they had but also their best pnr defensive big ...and he has not been healthy the past 3 years.
5. How much will this team rely on Lebron? No excuses, but you could see he was worn down last June. Yes his team-mates failed him worse but Lebron was not the consistent beast he had been the previous two Finals (mostly). Even with Love and Kyrie relying on Lebron has been a crutch for Spo, Mike Brown etc.

I wont become a Cavs fan but having two of the best passing forwards on one team should be exciting to watch for any true hoops fan.

[djohn2oo8]

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...one-mode=basic

crofl look at that ing shot chart

[djohn2oo8]

These Love defenders are starting to get tiresome. What points of the game does Love get his stats? Are they primarily in the 1-3 quarters or in the 4th?