Spurs: DUNCAN: THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION by Jack McCallum

[spurraider21]

Let me count the ways you proved my point:

1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.
2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the les did not prove anything ... but whatever.
3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?
4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bull that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.

* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do.

as a spurfan in LA, the main thing i've heard in the duncan-kobe debates are the rings/scoring/81. many actually argue that Duncan was 2nd banana in 2007 and it was already parker's team then . they take that farse of a series and the fMVP award pretty literally.

interestingly, even before the recent b2b, lakerfans i know would still argue Kobe > Duncan, and they would argue that 3peat is more impressive than 4 les over 9 seasons. then once they won b2b it literally just became rings rings rings.

[Killakobe81]

as a spurfan in LA, the main thing i've heard in the duncan-kobe debates are the rings/scoring/81. many actually argue that Duncan was 2nd banana in 2007 and it was already parker's team then . they take that farse of a series and the fMVP award pretty literally.

interestingly, even before the recent b2b, lakerfans i know would still argue Kobe > Duncan, and they would argue that 3peat is more impressive than 4 les over 9 seasons. then once they won b2b it literally just became rings rings rings.

I admit I may overrate Kobe some, but I have the utmost respect for Duncan. On a related note I dont get why Some Spur fans are so quick to place Duncan over Kobe but not Duncan over Shaq. Even if duncan has surpassed Kobe (and Shaq) all of that is debatable especially Kobe vs. Shaq ...even if Shaq was the alpha on the 3peat.

[spurraider21]

I admit I may overrate Kobe some, but I have the utmost respect for Duncan. On a related note I dont get why Some Spur fans are so quick to place Duncan over Kobe but not Duncan over Shaq. Even if duncan has surpassed Kobe (and Shaq) all of that is debatable especially Kobe vs. Shaq ...even if Shaq was the alpha on the 3peat.

its not unexpected. a typical fanboy move is to on a player that left your team. most recently on ST, djohn has done it with parsons, lakerfans have done it to an extent with shaq. i always see that meme with kobe's 01 playoff stats saying "people be like, shaq carried kobe" when people dont realize the dynamic of having a force like shaq in the game. back then you rarely doubled kobe, and you have 3-4 guys keying in on shaq even when he didnt have the ball.

look at lakerfans when they acquired dwight, when they wanted him back, and then after he left

[Killakobe81]

its not unexpected. a typical fanboy move is to on a player that left your team. most recently on ST, djohn has done it with parsons, lakerfans have done it to an extent with shaq. i always see that meme with kobe's 01 playoff stats saying "people be like, shaq carried kobe" when people dont realize the dynamic of having a force like shaq in the game. back then you rarely doubled kobe, and you have 3-4 guys keying in on shaq even when he didnt have the ball.

look at lakerfans when they acquired dwight, when they wanted him back, and then after he left

Good points but I was talking about Spur fan. You seem pretty reasonable spuraider tip of the cap to ya ... all the same. I was never 100% sold on Dwight and said I did not want him if it took the max to keep him. Heck I did not even want Kobe at the max or close to it ...Shaq was absolutely a beast but there is a reason why he could not win without Phil and Kobe's development. (Kobe would not of won without him either ...) It was a legit 1-2 punch with Kobe getting closer to 1 as the year's moved on ...

But who cares? Back to the article. As amazing as Duncan is ... the Spurs front office, Pop's coaching coaching and Robinson's mentorship of Tim and of course his supporting cast could be argued are of the caliber the NBA has rarely seen and that sure gets short shrift on here except when it's convenient. Of course I get what the article is saying... but if it was so easy to win (especially now) and build around a big then why is no other recent big enjoying that kind of success? The Spurs model is so hard to follow not just because of Tim but how many players sacrifice like the SPurs culture gets it's players to do. Even Tony who gets so much heat has sacrificed himself for this team. If discussing Tim's legacy ...Tony become Enrique and Manu is wild. Pop an idiot.

When talking about the Spurs as a dynasty or where the current team ranks all-time ...all of a sudden they have the best team of recent years and would stomp out the Shaqobe Lakers and give Mj's Bulls a run for the money. Cannot have it both ways. Duncan is a great piece to build around but give me MJ. In fact I may also take Lebron but that is debatable too. Heck give MJ Pop and David in the early years and Kiwi and Tony later on and I think MJ wins just as easy if not more so than Duncan ...even if Tim was better fit or better leader. Jordan was THAT good imho. And the crux of the thread was about duncan compared to MJ not Duncan vs. Kobe.

[spurraider21]

Good points but I was talking about Spur fan. You seem pretty reasonable spuraider tip of the cap to ya ... all the same. I was never 100% sold on Dwight and said I did not want him if it took the max to keep him. Heck I did not even want Kobe at the max or close to it ...Shaq was absolutely a beast but there is a reason why he could not win without Phil and Kobe's development. (Kobe would not of won without him either ...) It was a legit 1-2 punch with Kobe getting closer to 1 as the year's moved on ...

But who cares? Back to the article. As amazing as Duncan is ... the Spurs front office, Pop's coaching coaching and Robinson's mentorship of Tim and of course his supporting cast could be argued are of the caliber the NBA has rarely seen and that sure gets short shrift on here except when it's convenient. Of course I get what the article is saying... but if it was so easy to win (especially now) and build around a big then why is no other recent big enjoying that kind of success? The Spurs model is so hard to follow not just because of Tim but how many players sacrifice like the SPurs culture gets it's players to do. Even Tony who gets so much heat has sacrificed himself for this team. If discussing Tim's legacy ...Tony become Enrique and Manu is wild. Pop an idiot.

When talking about the Spurs as a dynasty or where the current team ranks all-time ...all of a sudden they have the best team of recent years and would stomp out the Shaqobe Lakers and give Mj's Bulls a run for the money. Cannot have it both ways. Duncan is a great piece to build around but give me MJ. In fact I may also take Lebron but that is debatable too. Heck give MJ Pop and David in the early years and Kiwi and Tony later on and I think MJ wins just as easy if not more so than Duncan ...even if Tim was better fit or better leader. Jordan was THAT good imho. And the crux of the thread was about duncan compared to MJ not Duncan vs. Kobe.

A big part of the spurs culture is because Duncan is unselfish. How pop is such a godfather figure, how teammates of his get so much glory. Not many superstars as dominant as Duncan would be willing to step back the way Tim has.

As for this years spurs team, nobody will argue that Duncan was crazy dominant. He stepped up wen the situation demanded and took over at times, but how many stars would be cool with such a team oriented approach I wouldn't believe for a second that a Kobe led team could have looked like this years spurs even if you had the same roster tbh. Same could arguably have been said for MJ

[lefty]

Jordan better defensively?

Because we all know Pippen used to guard the other teams best perimeter players

[lefty]

lol over glorifying the most overrated clown who played against horse at his position

especially the clowns who claim or wanted to be jordan stoppers in the playoffs, those pos player..none of them beside gary payton appeared on any all defensive teams, let alone win dpoy or gathered enough dpoy votes to be considered a above avg defender...

clown aint even clutch, clutch is the most overrated stat, its like does a player have the next step killer instinct to win games, either u do or you dont, u dont put a stat on it...u cant measure it, if he was the GOAT why does he need clutch basket to win games? shouldnt he be stomping on teams by winning margins

if he was so clutch why he loss a bet?

GODDAM

[lefty]

Stern also changed rules so DK could finally get past the Bad Boy Pistons

Troof bomb.

That's why the Pistons didn't shake hands with them in 91.
Before that season started, MJ and Phil ed to the NBA about their physical play.

Did the Celtics or Lakers whined to the league when they used to play them?
No, they responded on the court. Magic hit Isiah, Parrish punched the out of Laimbeer, Bird squared off with the same Laimbeer, etc...

[Splits]

As for this years spurs team, nobody will argue that Duncan was crazy dominant. He stepped up wen the situation demanded and took over at times, but how many stars would be cool with such a team oriented approach I wouldn't believe for a second that a Kobe led team could have looked like this years spurs even if you had the same roster tbh. Same could arguably have been said for MJ

You're seriously under rating TD's postseason run.

He led the team in minutes, PER, WinShares, offensive boards, defensive boards, total boards, FTA and blocks. Second on the team in PTS, FG%, and FGA.

[ambchang]

I love how I make a case about Jordan make a refference to Kobe and the Amb is happy to switch mid-stream. You do realize the crux of my post that you quoted was that I dont care if "traditionally" it's easier to build around a big man, I would STILL take Jordan. It is that type of mind-set that leads to Hakeem over Jordan (not a horrible choice but still wrong), Bowie over Jordan (just terrible) and Oden over Durant. I take teh best player regardless of size...and you can attack this post I don't care ...but as great as Tim is top 10 etc. The gap between Jordan and duncan is great enough that despite him being a ty leader, father gambler you STILL take Mj to build a team because he is the GOAT. PERIOD. The ultimate foundation regardles of size. Again Iw asnt even a big Jordan fan and was/is rooting for Lebron to surpass him to shut up the Jordan lovers.

Buddy, you introduced Kobe, and you are now blaming me for taking the bait? This is getting ludicrous. Yes, I am happy to engage in that argument, because I love spreading the gospel of how overrated Kobe is.

As for the Jordan stance, I can see your point, he was great, but he required a very specific team makeup that had him dominate the ball, another best of all time perimeter defender, and strong interior defenders who can shoot. That's not really an easy team to build at all.

As for Bowie over Jordan, not a lot of people saw that coming. Jordan wasn't showcased in Dean Smith's offense, Bowie was a phenomenal player before he got hurt (next Walton type who was going to revolutionize the game). And Oden vs. Durant was a real debate, Oden was the next Mutombo/Robinson type who will anchor a championship defense. Again, injuries took away that, and Durant was just perfect for today's offense. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, there were arguments fore and against each.

I would actually see almost every one taking over Jordan for your exact same reasons. He is the GOAT. I am just going for Duncan because a) I am Spurs fan, and b) Duncan really is a lot easier to build around, or at least he has proven so.

But Amb has such a "stiffy" for Kobe one mention and the thread changes course for you ... so obsessed. Can I ask you Amb ...does it get your blood boiling when me or a real Kobe stan makes that argument? Does the mention of his name make your curse? Think back to my post. I gave you credit for a great post. I asked even if being sarcastic if you could try and apply that type of non emo reasoning to a Kobe related topic and what did you do? Gave some pretty good stats surrounded in some emotional BS about leadership etc.

Right now if you could make a logical argument not just based on stats without the extra you could probably win me over becvaus elike I said NUMEROUS times teh past two seasons pretty hard to make a case for Kobe right now. But when you get all in the he DESTROYS Kobe and duncan is winning in every single way mode you sound like a childish fanboy and not the intelligent poster you are, all jokes aside.

Amb I really did want to have a debate with you someday even if I lost ... I repected you that much .. but you make it harder with responses like these. I wont lie some of what I posted from time to time said were digs (not trolling in my book but again I am not good at it) but seriously why does the subject of Kobe make the quality of your posts suffer? Maybe I should seek out DPG or Cry for a lengthy debate instead.

The issue I have with Kobe is not Kobe, it's the absolute lack of logic in overrating him. His flaws are obvious for all to see. It's like people arguing for Jordan being the undisputed GOAT (I don't agree, I think he's a top candidate, but Kareem, Magic, and Bird all have a say in this, not to mention old timers like Russell and Wilt), or Howard being the next Shaq. And like you mention, it's a hard case to make for Kobe, which is getting destroyed in my book. If there is little to no case for one side of an argument, it's no longer an argument.

Let me count the ways you proved my point:

1. No it wasnt my entire case I just dont feel the need to re-hash them. I wont lie it was a BIG part of my case and hence why I have conceded the point for now.

How did this prove your point? Rings was a big part of your case, it's no longer there. I proves my point.

2. Just because you say he is DESTROYING doesn't make it so ... but nice try. Especially when last week you said the les did not prove anything ... but whatever.

It's destroying the case because your one and only case is no longer there. And no, Duncan after 2003 cemented it, his absolute dominance in 2003, and to an extent 1999 was NEVER duplicated by Kobe in any of those le runs (2002 was his closest, but he was still the clear #2 in those). 2004 onwards just added to it.

And for the record, I never put rings as an important consideration. It's a reflection that a player can be the core of the ultimate team success, but that is not an overly important part of evaluating an individual. How an individual led a team to the promised land is important to me, and that's why I do poke holes into how Jordan is the undisputed GOAT. He won one way, and one way only in a largely watered down league where he was clearly promoted as the face of the league. Compared that to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird and Duncan, who won in a variety of way by playing different roles on different championship teams, and I tend to have them level out the field.

That said, Jordan had the longest reign of dominance of any of those players, and had them coincide with team success. Kareem wasted a lot of his time in the 70s, Magic really took over the team for about 5 or 6 years, and back injuries robbed Bird of his dominance.

3. Yep every single way it's such a closed case but yet you keep making it ...are you trying to convince me, the SPURSTALK populace or yourself?

I guess it would be you and anyone reading the thread, but still not sure how this helps make your case. You even admitted that it's extremely tough to argue for Kobe, so how is this not a rout?

4. Not sure how I am not biased but "I will close with a bunch of media bull that has as much weight as "the GM's would take Kobe over duncan crap" that Kobe stans spew.
5. I do agree his shot selection and decison making sucks at times no doubt about that though ... LOL You got something right. Should have stopped there the rest sounds sorta feminine.

* Lol at that analogy of Spurs vs. Heat in a Kobe vs. duncan debate when both in their primes Kobe had the advantage head to head in games that mattered and rings. Oh wait, it was all Shaq ...then MVPau and rings don't matter ...until they do.

Leadership qualities are extremely important in a team game. Kobe ran Shaq out of time, isolated himself with his teammates, threw his teammates under the bus repeated, clashed with his coach, and created an unstable environment throughout the years. The Lakers needn't be that bad from 2005 to 2007, they certainly didn't have to be this bad from 2012 onwards, and Kobe created a whole lot of that mess. And that is also one reason I knock Jordan down a peg because of his clashes with Krause. Krause created this team that fits perfectly with Jordan, and yet he didn't recognize it. He undermined the decision making, and took his petty views on Kukoc, where Kukoc could have been a major contributor for the Bulls. He created this air of intimidation which ultimately led to Horace Grant leaving them. He was lucky Jackson was around to manage those egos.

[kobe4life]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

[lefty]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

Koballah is better than Duncan, MJ, Magic and Bird combined
Great Satan doesnt even belong in the conversation


to Koballah's unmatched charisma, dedication and carrying Shaq and Pau to NBA les

[Killakobe81]

Buddy, you introduced Kobe, and you are now blaming me for taking the bait? This is getting ludicrous. Yes, I am happy to engage in that argument, because I love spreading the gospel of how overrated Kobe is.

As for the Jordan stance, I can see your point, he was great, but he required a very specific team makeup that had him dominate the ball, another best of all time perimeter defender, and strong interior defenders who can shoot. That's not really an easy team to build at all.

As for Bowie over Jordan, not a lot of people saw that coming. Jordan wasn't showcased in Dean Smith's offense, Bowie was a phenomenal player before he got hurt (next Walton type who was going to revolutionize the game). And Oden vs. Durant was a real debate, Oden was the next Mutombo/Robinson type who will anchor a championship defense. Again, injuries took away that, and Durant was just perfect for today's offense. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, there were arguments fore and against each.

I would actually see almost every one taking over Jordan for your exact same reasons. He is the GOAT. I am just going for Duncan because a) I am Spurs fan, and b) Duncan really is a lot easier to build around, or at least he has proven so.



The issue I have with Kobe is not Kobe, it's the absolute lack of logic in overrating him. His flaws are obvious for all to see. It's like people arguing for Jordan being the undisputed GOAT (I don't agree, I think he's a top candidate, but Kareem, Magic, and Bird all have a say in this, not to mention old timers like Russell and Wilt), or Howard being the next Shaq. And like you mention, it's a hard case to make for Kobe, which is getting destroyed in my book. If there is little to no case for one side of an argument, it's no longer an argument.



How did this prove your point? Rings was a big part of your case, it's no longer there. I proves my point.



It's destroying the case because your one and only case is no longer there. And no, Duncan after 2003 cemented it, his absolute dominance in 2003, and to an extent 1999 was NEVER duplicated by Kobe in any of those le runs (2002 was his closest, but he was still the clear #2 in those). 2004 onwards just added to it.

And for the record, I never put rings as an important consideration. It's a reflection that a player can be the core of the ultimate team success, but that is not an overly important part of evaluating an individual. How an individual led a team to the promised land is important to me, and that's why I do poke holes into how Jordan is the undisputed GOAT. He won one way, and one way only in a largely watered down league where he was clearly promoted as the face of the league. Compared that to guys like Kareem, Magic, Bird and Duncan, who won in a variety of way by playing different roles on different championship teams, and I tend to have them level out the field.

That said, Jordan had the longest reign of dominance of any of those players, and had them coincide with team success. Kareem wasted a lot of his time in the 70s, Magic really took over the team for about 5 or 6 years, and back injuries robbed Bird of his dominance.



I guess it would be you and anyone reading the thread, but still not sure how this helps make your case. You even admitted that it's extremely tough to argue for Kobe, so how is this not a rout?



Leadership qualities are extremely important in a team game. Kobe ran Shaq out of time, isolated himself with his teammates, threw his teammates under the bus repeated, clashed with his coach, and created an unstable environment throughout the years. The Lakers needn't be that bad from 2005 to 2007, they certainly didn't have to be this bad from 2012 onwards, and Kobe created a whole lot of that mess. And that is also one reason I knock Jordan down a peg because of his clashes with Krause. Krause created this team that fits perfectly with Jordan, and yet he didn't recognize it. He undermined the decision making, and took his petty views on Kukoc, where Kukoc could have been a major contributor for the Bulls. He created this air of intimidation which ultimately led to Horace Grant leaving them. He was lucky Jackson was around to manage those egos.

1. yet three of the poorest leaders (by your accounting) also have 6, 6 and 5 rings respectively.
2. Leadership is important but it does not all have to come from your best player in fact Duncan greatly from Pop just like Jordan relied on Phil
3. I agree Duncan probably is a better leader than Kareem, Jordan or Kobe but I am still not taking him first to build a team around (point of article lest you forget) over Kareem, Jordan or even Magic. Kobe? Like i said leaning Duncan now ...
4. Long messages doesnt mean you won an argument but ... if you feel so ... the belt is yours!
5. Kobe's flaws are obvious but not everyone is obsessed like you are ... but at least now you admitted something. Since he is overrated by some ...you feel the need to underrate him and DESTROY him (such a feminine word btw. It should be masculine but women are fond using the word for dramatic effect. I think it was Chris Rock who riffed on his wife telling him her problems ...oh crap I found it ... Click here >>>>Bigger & blacker

If you go to you tube here is where it happens

01:02:05 Women, y'all exaggerate everything. You turn it into some Dynasty , like:
01:02:09 ''She's trying to destroy me!''
01:02:12 What the are you talking about? You wrap up bags at J.C. Penney's!
01:02:17 What's she doing, ripping up your paper?

Look like I said I do respect you but I just find it humorous that you get that serious about this. Similar to how the overrating of MVPau used to irk me ...but much, much worse. I just dont remember going through that much trouble to argue something ... that apparently is sooo blatantly obvious to everyone.
Would you spend so much time arguing Jordan vs. Wade? Just go back and look at way you describe this debate it just reminds me of Beyonce fans arguing how "Be" destroys Rhianna, Niki Manaj and Alicia Keys". Only kids and women get that emotional over their favorite things. I love a good debate but not when the person is so emotional on the subject at hand. Maybe in time you will find peace. And we can revisit at a later date. Too much hate in you.

[ambchang]

1. yet three of the poorest leaders (by your accounting) also have 6, 6 and 5 rings respectively.

No, they are not the poorest of the leaders. Jordan and Jabbar could do better, but they are not the poorest.

And the logic of ends justifies the means is faulty. Players can win even more championships, and sometimes teams win despite those flaws.

2. Leadership is important but it does not all have to come from your best player in fact Duncan greatly from Pop just like Jordan relied on Phil

Agreed, in fact, I think David Robinson laid the foundation of the Spurs culture.

3. I agree Duncan probably is a better leader than Kareem, Jordan or Kobe but I am still not taking him first to build a team around (point of article lest you forget) over Kareem, Jordan or even Magic. Kobe? Like i said leaning Duncan now ...

You are not leaning, you have yet to come up with any arguments against picking Duncan over Kobe. I can see people picking Kareem, Jordan or Magic over Duncan, but there are arguments fore and against.

4. Long messages doesnt mean you won an argument but ... if you feel so ... the belt is yours!

Not sure where this came from.

5. Kobe's flaws are obvious but not everyone is obsessed like you are ... but at least now you admitted something. Since he is overrated by some ...you feel the need to underrate him and DESTROY him (such a feminine word btw. It should be masculine but women are fond using the word for dramatic effect. I think it was Chris Rock who riffed on his wife telling him her problems ...oh crap I found it ... Click here >>>>Bigger & blacker

If you go to you tube here is where it happens

01:02:05 Women, y'all exaggerate everything. You turn it into some Dynasty , like:
01:02:09 ''She's trying to destroy me!''
01:02:12 What the are you talking about? You wrap up bags at J.C. Penney's!
01:02:17 What's she doing, ripping up your paper?

Huge leaps of assumptions with the above. You are assuming:
a) I am not female
b) Words can be genderized based no a few skits
c) Women use words like "you" and "me" too in arguments, doesn't mean that they are feminine words
d) Using feminne words would somehow dillute the strength or logic of an argument
e) Beyonce fans are all females

and I never said I destroyed Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroys Kobe's legacy.

It is sad seeing you trying to argue by marginalizing a word I used, and the way to marginalize it is by calling the word feminine. It's pretty pathetic.

Look like I said I do respect you but I just find it humorous that you get that serious about this. Similar to how the overrating of MVPau used to irk me ...but much, much worse. I just dont remember going through that much trouble to argue something ... that apparently is sooo blatantly obvious to everyone.
Would you spend so much time arguing Jordan vs. Wade? Just go back and look at way you describe this debate it just reminds me of Beyonce fans arguing how "Be" destroys Rhianna, Niki Manaj and Alicia Keys". Only kids and women get that emotional over their favorite things. I love a good debate but not when the person is so emotional on the subject at hand. Maybe in time you will find peace. And we can revisit at a later date. Too much hate in you.

If some idiots come and argue Wade > Jordan, I would argue the out of it, because that is just stupid.

And now you are trying to discount my arguments by claiming I have too much hate in me, as if I belong to the dark side or something. This is just getting out of hand.

[scanry]

Give it a rest guys.

arm, Killa is usually pretty unbiased. His Kobe fanaticism went away the moment Kobe signed 48.5.

[Killakobe81]

No, they are not the poorest of the leaders. Jordan and Jabbar could do better, but they are not the poorest.

And the logic of ends justifies the means is faulty. Players can win even more championships, and sometimes teams win despite those flaws.

Agreed, in fact, I think David Robinson laid the foundation of the Spurs culture.



You are not leaning, you have yet to come up with any arguments against picking Duncan over Kobe. I can see people picking Kareem, Jordan or Magic over Duncan, but there are arguments fore and against.



Not sure where this came from.



Huge leaps of assumptions with the above. You are assuming:
a) I am not female
b) Words can be genderized based no a few skits
c) Women use words like "you" and "me" too in arguments, doesn't mean that they are feminine words
d) Using feminne words would somehow dillute the strength or logic of an argument
e) Beyonce fans are all females

and I never said I destroyed Kobe's legacy, I said Duncan's legacy destroys Kobe's legacy.

It is sad seeing you trying to argue by marginalizing a word I used, and the way to marginalize it is by calling the word feminine. It's pretty pathetic.



If some idiots come and argue Wade > Jordan, I would argue the out of it, because that is just stupid.

And now you are trying to discount my arguments by claiming I have too much hate in me, as if I belong to the dark side or something. This is just getting out of hand.

1. If you are female that would make a lot more sense, tbh. If you are not, I stand by what I said. It sounded like a feminine response if the heels fit wear it girlfriend
2. How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today.
3. However, and I guess what your issue is ...that I think it was fairly close and just pushed him ahead the past two seasons. IS THAT your issue? IF so, so sad and if you want to throw pathetic around that is it, tbh. Not enough for you to win but you must DESTROY ME too?
4. Dont be obtuse the words themselves were not feminine but the usage was ...it reminded me of that Chris Rock skit and I called you out on it.
Because again if it wasn't close or worth a debate why do you and others spend so much time on it?
5. I never said all of Beyonce fans are females. (who is taking a leap now) Men worship her looks and some her talent ...and she is HUGELY popular in the gay community ...this gay co-worker of mine does youtube videos to her all the time. (not a phobe but those are 5 minutes of my life I want back). But the "behive" (her fanclub) and plenty of her fans that I have come across literally get mad when I say that she is cute but overrated or if I say I prefer Alicia Keys. They act like you act when I say Duncan is greater but it's close. That was my point. If it offended you, Oh well.
6. Come on Amb. You hate Kobe. Not saying you are evil or anything. I hate the Redskins and the Celts. Bill Laimbeer. Bulls version of Rodman. Heck I dont even like Derek Jeter (but I respect him and his pimp game have you seen his "hit list" ...and I am not talking about baseball) If i were to debate Jeter vs. Bonds for example or Cal Ripken I would at least admit I dont like the dude. That is all I am saying.
7. You do realize your hate is pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain? Right?
8. I must of struck a cord because now I am pathetic ... I do apologize though if you were offended ... it wasnt personal, just funny to me.

[ambchang]

1. If you are female that would make a lot more sense, tbh. If you are not, I stand by what I said. It sounded like a feminine response if the heels fit wear it girlfriend

And what seems to be the problem with that?

2. How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today.

That's all I want to read.

3. However, and I guess what your issue is ...that I think it was fairly close and just pushed him ahead the past two seasons. IS THAT your issue? IF so, so sad and if you want to throw pathetic around that is it, tbh. Not enough for you to win but you must DESTROY ME too?

It's not fairly close, and the 2014 championship didn't put Duncan over the top, he has always been > Kobe. My issue is the mindless emphasis on # of rings. Yes, the main goal of any player should be to win the championship, but it is not a cause for evaluation. It's like saying a CEO of company A > CEO of company B because company A makes more profit, and totally ignore other factors such as markets, client base, company make up and such.

4. Dont be obtuse the words themselves were not feminine but the usage was ...it reminded me of that Chris Rock skit and I called you out on it.
Because again if it wasn't close or worth a debate why do you and others spend so much time on it?

So now Chris Rock is some linguistic genius who can assign genders to word usage? First time I have heard of

5. I never said all of Beyonce fans are females. (who is taking a leap now) Men worship her looks and some her talent ...and she is HUGELY popular in the gay community ...this gay co-worker of mine does youtube videos to her all the time. (not a phobe but those are 5 minutes of my life I want back). But the "behive" (her fanclub) and plenty of her fans that I have come across literally get mad when I say that she is cute but overrated or if I say I prefer Alicia Keys. They act like you act when I say Duncan is greater but it's close. That was my point. If it offended you, Oh well.

You like to argue Alicia Keys over Beyonce? You are one masculine man.

6. Come on Amb. You hate Kobe. Not saying you are evil or anything. I hate the Redskins and the Celts. Bill Laimbeer. Bulls version of Rodman. Heck I dont even like Derek Jeter (but I respect him and his pimp game have you seen his "hit list" ...and I am not talking about baseball) If i were to debate Jeter vs. Bonds for example or Cal Ripken I would at least admit I dont like the dude. That is all I am saying.

I don't like the fans and the overratedness. In terms of a player? I am neutral. The only player I dislike, or even hate, was pedophile.

7. You do realize your hate is pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain? Right?

That's the reason they only have half a brain.

8. I must of struck a cord because now I am pathetic ... I do apologize though if you were offended ... it wasnt personal, just funny to me.

You are not pathetic, the act of undermining an argument by associating feminine qualities to it is though. You are lucky this board is male dominated, or else the feminists will be all over you.

[ambchang]

Hey Killa

Didn't realize you are a female too.

Fair points but disagree about 2001 Lakers. As you said 2002 was a weak squad but 2001 had prime Shaq and Kobe playing elite level hoops. That Kobe shat on Bowen, so KL is great but Kobe has dominated better. With Phil and a great staff behind them. Also your last paragraph with MVPau pretty much destroyed the credibility of what you wrote before it. I get you live to troll and bash Kobe but that was calculated but childish.

Apparently, I destroyed my own argument according to you.

Lebron is the most dominant player but Kobe/Duncan/Manu are three of the most compe ive and clutch players I ever seen ...plus Duncan would destroy Bosh more than Lebron could Kobe or Wade do Manu in fact the "Fire" that burn s in Kobe/Manu would make them hold their own.

Plus for the Heat Bosh is actually the best pure shooter of their bunch ...

Was this posted before or after you got led to the light by Chris Rock?

[Clipper Nation]

I think we need to invoke the mercy rule on this one, Killa is getting owned by amb worse than usual

[spurraider21]

How many times do I have to say I will not debate this right now with you? Even before 5 I told you that We would discuss at retirement of both. I have just said that without digging deeper if pressed right now I would have to say Duncan or I am leaning Duncan. I dont know how much more you want out of me at this point? I already said the "belt" is yours ... so let me say it again ... RIGHT now I would choose Duncan as the greater player if both retired today.

if you were a betting man, do you anticipate that changing? at this point, in your opinion, what would kobe have to accomplish to claim > Duncan stature?

[Killakobe81]

if you were a betting man, do you anticipate that changing? at this point, in your opinion, what would kobe have to accomplish to claim > Duncan stature?

Doubtful tbh. Would take a whole lot to change it now. But to answer your question at least a Finals run and an ALL NBA type season. Legit one too not a sympathy one.

[Killakobe81]

Hey Killa

Didn't realize you are a female too.



Apparently, I destroyed my own argument according to you.



Was this posted before or after you got led to the light by Chris Rock?

As a man, Amb I stand by what I said. In the context of my post it made sense. If played by Bosh 1 on 1 in the post duncan would DESTROY Bosh. Do you have any problem with the premise of that statement? Duncan even at his advanced age is an amazing post player especially against undersized guys that can't handle his core strength. agree or disagree? Or did you go just hunting through my posts to find when I used the word destroy since I had ruffled your tail feathers?
Do you see the proper way to use the word? I know you probably felt all proud pounding your pecs (or breasts) ...good find .... but it makes more sense for me to use than your case ... Duncan doesnt destroy Kobe's Legacy, come on now. Even if you feel it's not close ...re-examine what you wrote. How can another player being great or greater destroy someone's legacy? That premise alone is faulty. But yes an argument can be destroyed ... as could Bosh be in the post by duncan.

As for Captain "Save em" CN, in the words of Jay "for all you other cats throwing shots at Killa ... you only get half a bar ... yall niccas"

[Killakobe81]

And what seems to be the problem with that?

That's all I want to read.




It's not fairly close, and the 2014 championship didn't put Duncan over the top, he has always been > Kobe. My issue is the mindless emphasis on # of rings. Yes, the main goal of any player should be to win the championship, but it is not a cause for evaluation. It's like saying a CEO of company A > CEO of company B because company A makes more profit, and totally ignore other factors such as markets, client base, company make up and such.



So now Chris Rock is some linguistic genius who can assign genders to word usage? First time I have heard of



You like to argue Alicia Keys over Beyonce? You are one masculine man.



I don't like the fans and the overratedness. In terms of a player? I am neutral. The only player I dislike, or even hate, was pedophile.



That's the reason they only have half a brain.



You are not pathetic, the act of undermining an argument by associating feminine qualities to it is though. You are lucky this board is male dominated, or else the feminists will be all over you.

Of course you could not stop here. Im starting to wonder if you have a crush on me since you dropping hints you are feamale ... Sorry I am married and I dont like drama ...but you are intelligent. IF I ever am single again I will send you a pm I find intelligent females sexy.

[Killakobe81]

God is better than Duncan for a bunch of reasons. 1 he is a better leader since he's more vocal. 2 he scores a lot more points per game than Duncan. 3 He has better footwork than Duncan. 4 He has a greater killers instincts than Duncan. 5. He has overcome more adversity than Duncan has ever had to deal with. 6. His work ethic is better than Duncan since I hear all the time about Kobe working out during the summer but never about Duncan. 7. God has a better post up game. 8 God is more feared than Duncan. 9 God is more clutch than Duncan. 10. God is a better passer than Duncan. 11 God gets more endorsements than Duncan because he's simply a better player.

Move over to LG, homey!

[lefty]

Move over to LG, homey!

Kobe4life