Would you put Kawhi over Manu and TP in the all time Spurs list if...

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

If you keep saying manu was the 2nd best player in the playoffs, you're doing a disservice to kawhi.

How so?

He was our best player against Dallas, was HUGE against OKC (I think he shot 61% from three in that series) and took us home against Miami. That's not disrespectful at all. Kawhi didn't have a "huge moment" until the game 6 block.

[ElNono]

you're also forgetting all world defense. I'm pretty sure bowen had sht per and raw stats because he is away from the basket more. Even PtR they were talking about how 100% greatness for 25mins isn't as good as 85% greatness for 45mins. I'm just paraphrasing. If you keep saying manu was the 2nd best player in the playoffs, you're doing a disservice to kawhi.

So what you're saying is that stats don't reflect how good he was and your opinion is mostly based on emotion? As I said previously, that's fine. I've had my own opinions based on eye-test.
Bowen was also great, but I don't think anybody every claimed he was the second best Spur on any of the championship teams. Being an integral, important part of any championship team is a compliment, not a disservice, IMO.

[dabom]

So what you're saying is that stats don't reflect how good he was and your opinion is mostly based on emotion? As I said previously, that's fine. I've had my own opinions based on eye-test.
Bowen was also great, but I don't think anybody every claimed he was the second best Spur on any of the championship teams. Being an integral, important part of any championship team is a compliment, not a disservice, IMO.

I'm talking about his defense doesn't show up in per. A stat you like. Win shares says Kawhi did better than Manu. How is that the eye test?

[Macca76]

Manu and Tony have 8 rings combined, but the accomplishments they've had as a NBA Player alone isn't mind-blowing when comparing them to the Big 3 of Spurs Greats (Duncan, Robinson and Gervin).

I don't think it's fair to demand Kawhi to win 2-4 extra rings in order to surpass Tony/Manu. Kawhi doesn't have the luxury to play with a prime Duncan, but hopefully he'll have Pop for a good while. I think if Kawhi gets another Finals MVP, 4-5 All-Star Appearances, and a couple of All-NBA Defensive Selections he'll be right up there - if not arguably better.

Kawhi's already a greater defensive player than Tony or Manu ever was, and what he's accomplished by age 23 is miles better than what Parker/Ginobili did. But who knows.

I think you're getting over yourself just a little bit

[Clipper Nation]

Kawhi is already better than Enrique, tbh....

[ElNono]

I'm talking about his defense doesn't show up in per. A stat you like. Win shares says Kawhi did better than Manu. How is that the eye test?

I'm actually not that big of a fan of PER (or any individual stat taken into a vacuum)... that's why I brought up other numbers. You can always pick and choose one or two stats, but the combination always paints a better picture.

I'm a huge fan of Kawhi's defense. Tops on the team, IMO. Chinook probably disagrees tho

[HI-FI]

I love Kawhi and I think he can be great, but because I have no financial stake...

personally, I put him above Enrique. i'm biased, I liked Kawhi from the start and always had issues with Parker. Surpassing Manu will be tough, since he brought an entire continent to this board and to ESL classes. On the court, however, I think Kawhi will outshine Manu in due time.

[spurraider21]

Chinook probably disagrees tho

i want you two to discuss Green jumping at players at the 3 point line again

[RD2191]

i want you two to discuss Green jumping at players at the 3 point line again

[Chinook]

I'm actually not that big of a fan of PER (or any individual stat taken into a vacuum)... that's why I brought up other numbers. You can always pick and choose one or two stats, but the combination always paints a better picture.

I'm a huge fan of Kawhi's defense. Tops on the team, IMO. Chinook probably disagrees tho

Of course I do. Splitter is the best defender on the team now by a decent margin.

[Chinook]

i want you two to discuss Green jumping at players at the 3 point line again

*Truncated in the interest of space* For full post, see here: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...71#post7551471

I was totally intending to do some summer breakdowns. But I need to get Office on my computer again so that I can create the Excel spreadsheets. I was thinking of doing some from last year or maybe even the year before that.

[ElNono]

personally, I put him above Enrique. i'm biased, I liked Kawhi from the start and always had issues with Parker. Surpassing Manu will be tough, since he brought an entire continent to this board and to ESL classes. On the court, however, I think Kawhi will outshine Manu in due time.

Some idiot started a troll thread downstairs, but there was actually some of that going on, tbh.... check it out...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post7083584

[ElNono]

Of course I do. Splitter is the best defender on the team now by a decent margin.

I'm with you as far as Green being another great piece there. What I'd like to see from Danny is more work on his penetration. He showed good flashes in the Finals, I'd like that to be a permanent part of this repertoire.

[HI-FI]

Some idiot started a troll thread downstairs, but there was actually some of that going on, tbh.... check it out...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post7083584

that's a good post even though you were trolling jon stewart style. i think it's true though, Enrique is loved by some but others, present company included, never warmed up to him. I was always hoping Kidd was traded for him, I was caught up in all those media reports back then. So the feelings were there before, I guess it's a certain smugness with Parker or trust issues. I think he's gotten better and will be more appreciated when it's said and done. Thankfully we got Kawhi though, all i gotta say.

[Chinook]

I'm with you as far as Green being another great piece there. What I'd like to see from Danny is more work on his penetration. He showed good flashes in the Finals, I'd like that to be a permanent part of this repertoire.

The problem I see from Green is that he picks up the ball awkwardly when he's going into his layup. I think that messes up his timing and allows defenders to interfere more easily. He actually has a pretty wide array of finishing moves. But until he fixes the way he picks up the ball, he's going to be really inconsistent inside the arc.

[ElNono]

that's a good post even though you were trolling jon stewart style. i think it's true though, Enrique is loved by some but others, present company included, never warmed up to him. I was always hoping Kidd was traded for him, I was caught up in all those media reports back then. So the feelings were there before, I guess it's a certain smugness with Parker or trust issues. I think he's gotten better and will be more appreciated when it's said and done. Thankfully we got Kawhi though, all i gotta say.

They're all great and we should appreciate them all while they're here, tbh...

I do dread the day Tim and Manu walk away, I don't think we have enough to be actual contenders when that happens... Kawhi's progression in the next few seasons will do a great deal to dispel that notion or further cement it... let's hope it's the former.

[ElNono]

The problem I see from Green is that he picks up the ball awkwardly when he's going into his layup. I think that messes up his timing and allows defenders to interfere more easily. He actually has a pretty wide array of finishing moves. But until he fixes the way he picks up the ball, he's going to be really inconsistent inside the arc.

I don't see anything that's not fixable with reps... I just hope he's putting in the work instead of taking selfies, that's all..

[PingPong]

Durbeta wasn't completely wrong about Kawhi: he's a product of the spurs system. In another team, playing isoball, Kawhi will get exposed. Everyone who plays against the spurs is so focused at the passing that Kawhi dribbles surprise them.

[spurraider21]

Some idiot started a troll thread downstairs, but there was actually some of that going on, tbh.... check it out...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...=1#post7083584

[kaji157]

Of course not, Manu and TP contributed from every point to this team. Kawhi came to an already stablished team.
Not to say the ammount of attention that Manu, Tony and Tim still get on defense which makes Kawhi play on lesser defenders. Remember, LeBron covered Parker and Ginobili not Leonard.
Also, even if what i say at first was debatable, i will always rank consistente excelence over small bursts, the same way i do not rank Hakeem over Duncan evendoe he has back to back finals mvps, i wouldnte ranck Kawhi over our 10 year old backcourt.

[timaios]

It's mind blowing how the Spurs are all about team first (reason why they are the best in the NBA)... and some of their so-called fans are all about individuals.
I don't care who is the best player on that team, I care about the TEAM.

[KL2]

Of course not, Manu and TP contributed from every point to this team. Kawhi came to an already stablished team.
Not to say the ammount of attention that Manu, Tony and Tim still get on defense which makes Kawhi play on lesser defenders. Remember, LeBron covered Parker and Ginobili not Leonard.
Also, even if what i say at first was debatable, i will always rank consistente excelence over small bursts, the same way i do not rank Hakeem over Duncan evendoe he has back to back finals mvps, i wouldnte ranck Kawhi over our 10 year old backcourt.

Lol Lebron covered KY in the Finals, stop with the revisionist history. And for all the defensive attention they get, they get A LOT of help on offense with multiple screens and actual play calling.

Leonard is lucky if he even gets a screen out there, doesn't get any plays called for him, usually has 2 centers with Splitter/TD clogging the paint which severely limited his ability to drive/post. Leonard is usually guarding the best or 2nd best offensive player as well, it's a combo of him and Green that have revitalized this defense. People forget how piss poor TP was this year on defense and how average Manu was.

[will_spurs]

I really like Kawhi but let's stop pretending that a Finals MVP means he's suddenly the best player on the team by a wide margin. He's playing alongside three future HOFers, with a great supporting cast and a top 3 coach in the history of the NBA.

The future looks bright for him but he's still very far from surpassing Tony or Manu on the all-time Spurs list. First of all he'd pretty much have to be a Spur for life (or for a significant number of dominating seasons and playoffs). Then he'd also have to make significant contributions to the franchise history, either in terms of rings, stats, awards or getting close to being a franchise leader in some statistical categories (e.g. Manu leading the Spurs franchise in 3PM/3PA or Parker leading in assists + both of them being top 5 in pretty much every other meaningful category). And that also means staying healthy.

He's certainly got the potential to get there, but he still has a long way to go.

[will_spurs]

People forget how piss poor TP was this year on defense and how average Manu was.

It's easy to forget something that never happened, that's why.

[urunobili]

I think Kawhi has a shot at that but it's a LONG road ahead for him. I LOVE the kid and he hasn't entered his prime yet. We have no clue what lies ahead so we need to tone it down and let him keep riding the Big three as much as he can. We should bump this after an extension has been agreed in between him and the Spurs. With that said:

Spurs all time as of right now:

Alpha: Duncan
Beta: Robinson
Gamma: TP | Manu

Rest of the bunch:
Gervin
Kawhi
Elliott
Bowen