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You have no room
You have no room
You have no room
It's all valid points.
eh i think the mavs in 2011 people inflate dirk and minimize the rest of the teams contributions.
Dirk was obviously the main scorer and very effcient, but lets not forget that some guy named jason kidd was running the offense to the tune of 7.3 assists per game and lead the team in +/-, that jason terry had similar efficiency as dirk (just .005 less TS% on his 17.5pts, obviously dirk's 27.7 are much more impressive but terry was a good second scorer that year particularly from 3), chandler was huge on the boards, barea played out of his mind. carlisle was big too, his zone defense helped mask dirk's deficiencies and let his guards and wings take the brunt of the defensive work load, again who would have though that old man kidd would hold his own and then some against kobe, westbrook, wade/lebron.
as for dirk's run, in terms of WS/PER it wasnt that impressive, it wasnt even his best playoffs by those measures. Dont get me wrong dirk was great in 2011, but he wasnt playing by himself out there and its a stretch to say it was the one of the most dominant runs ever. for example 05 amare had more points, more boards and a higher TS%, 08 kg had a higher WS, so did manu in 05, and no one considers those guys to be on par with dirk 2011. its easy to dismiss the rest of the team because on paper/in other years they all sucked, but in reality they did their part and then some.
He shot .956 in game 4-6 and 1.000 in game 1-3 for a total mark of .978, which is the record (shared with Reggie Miller) for a 6 game series of the finals. Even as the 89% career FT shooter this is pretty remarkable as it happened on the biggest stage possible.
Can you tell me how many FT's were attempted frm games 1-3?
I'm not trying to diminish shooting at that percentage, as there were only a couple who maintained that but my position was it isn't remarkable especially from someone who's considered an elite shooter.
This is actually a very solid post. Hope people reads it.
Games 1-3: 24-24
Game 1: 12-12
Game 2: 3-3
Game 3: 9-9
Games 4-6: 21-22
Game 4: 9-10
Game 5: 10-10
Game 6: 2-2
Wrong. See post above.No its not
Dirk shot a huge amount of his points at the line, particularly in Games 4,5 and 6. Nothing impressive about that.
Nah, son.... you're definitely this guy, though:You have no room
Nah, son.... you're definitely this guy, though:
Don't drag me into this pile. I said dirk went ballistic in the playoffs, and you somehow said he wasn't that impressive in the finals, which had little to do with what I originally said.
The per-game averages aren't that eye popping, so to really appreciate Billups' effort, you have to check out the fine print. He scored 105 points with only 57 field goal attempts -- chew on that one for a second. Factoring in his 92.3 percent shooting from the line, his true shooting percentage was 69.5. Plus, in a series that was played at a snail's pace, his per-game stats don't nearly do justice to how well he played.
And Moses malone's 26 ppg and 18 RPG numbers trumps Dirks. Im sure even ambchang would agree.
Dirks finals stats weren't phenomenal, but he was the Mavs offense. That was the impressive thing about him. Jason terry was the only other threat on that team, but he needs dirk to create for him.
As for Moses, simply one of the most underrated players of all time because he didn't win enough les. That and his inability to speak like a sapient.
for the rest of the post, nobody is saying Mavs roster was but as mentioned Dirk was the main scorer by a mile... Kidd was 37 and even though he was still a good distributor, he was a freaking liability on the O end which eased opponent D greatly. Marion was a solid role player but past his prime, he scored the ball not very efficiently. Terry was a solid offensive option, Barea contributed. At the end Chandler was the only other all star of that team for his D presence.
So I'm not sure where people are inflating Dirk...
You have to look at Dirk's accomplishment as compared to his teammates though. He shot at an extremely high efficiency (.609 TS%), high usage (32% usage rate), scored a lot (39.1 pp100, Jason Terry was next at 29.8, a 25% drop), and had the highest OWS (2.7 vs. 2nd placed Terry at 2.1, that's almost a 30% jump), and DWS (tied at 0.9 with Kidd).
Of course his teammates stepped up, it's not like he carried the 87 Clippers to a ring, but Dirk was the offense on the Mavs, and the players was successful around him. Sure there were better playoff performances (Duncan in 03 was pretty much God mode).
The issue with 05 Amare, and 08 Garnett is that they had teammates putting up similar stats (Nash and Pierce/Allen), where they were not there to carry the offense.
Ginobili's 05 run was one of the best over the last little while, it's what made Ginobili such a fan favourite, but still, he had Duncan to take a lot of that credit. Dirk didn't have anyway else. His 3.6 ws was 0.9 ws over Chandler.
I admit its hard for me to like dirk, for the same reasons its hard for me to like durant, miller, kobe and those types who get cheap freebies on jumpshots. that plus 06 WCSF and I dont have a lot of love for the guy. but Ive come to respect him, and cheered for him in 2011 when he took out the lakers and the heat.
kevin garnett's 08 run had 4.1 WS, next is allen at 3.1, that is a 1.0 diff. Are we discussing who had worse teammates, who produced more relative to his teammates, or who subjectively was most impressive? its easy to list all the stats for what dirk does on offense, but it conveniently ignores his null contribution on defense.
I agree dirk was great, clearly the best player on his team, not disputing that. But people talk about the 2011 mavs like he did everything, and thats not the case. Brazil just called kidd a liability on O, when he averaged 7.3 assists and 37% from 3 at 5.5 attempts per game most on the team. his 1.9 winshares is more than tony parker had in his finals mvp year in 2007. not saying he deserves finals mvp, but he made big contributions not to mention that he chandler, marion and stevenson were the ones who made carlisle's zone defense work. kidd had 40 steals over the playoffs! that has only happened 48 times in league history. Its easy to say kidd was a 38 year old s of himself, when in reality he was damn good regardless of his age. The only other players to have 7+ assists, 1.5+ stl, and 36%+ from three minimum 5 attempts for a playoff run are kidd, paul, curry, the glove, iverson and deron williams. Granted kidd has the lowest point total among them, but that is still an exceptional contribution, and none of the other guys did it for more than 13 games, kidd did it for 21 and on average in 5 minutes less. IMO him chandler and terry were as strong a 2nd, 3rd and 4th guy as amare had in 05 (nash, marion and a 23 year old joe johnson), or for that matter howard in 09 (4.5 WS for howard, 1.7 WS difference to 2nd guy lewis, 3rd pietrus 4th turkoglu). I could even make an argument for 2012 durant, even if his 2-4 guys produced a lot (despite all being kids) the rest of the team was utter and he had better stats than dirk
dirk is better than amare and howard. but in my opinion his 2011 playoff run is exaggerated. it was great, but not especially so- for that look at shaq in 2000 or MJ or duncan etc.
Dirk's run in 2011 was impressive not because he did everything, but because of his importance on offense. Other than Kidd, Dirk was the only guy on that team who can really create offense, and Kidd couldn't finish. Terry can finish, but he can't create, so the end result is that Dirk was essentially what the Mavs offense was about.
The more impressive thing is that every body knew that, and every team was trying to stop Dirk because of it, and yet it didn't work, because Dirk still created quality offense despite being heavily guarded.
It's not that the other Mavs players didn't have any contributions, because they obviously did, especially on the defensive end, but it's rare to have a player who can carry an offensively unimpressive team to a le like Dirk did.
You don't agree that Malone's 26 and 18 Finals series isn't better than Dirk's 2011 Finals run?
You don't agree that Malone's 26 and 18 Finals series isn't better than Dirk's 2011 Finals run?
Oh no, I agree it's better. Dirk's 2011 finals wasn't extraordinary or anything, his 2011 playoff run was though.
agree to disagree. fail to see what made that team so offensively unimpressive. kidd and terry were known for being good offensive players, they had a lot of shooters (the aforementioned plus stojakovic, barea, and stevenson), chandler while limited could finish inside and marion despite his ugly ass shot was always known as a two way player. Its not like they played 4 on 5 with nothing but defensive specialists surrounding dirk. Durant in 2012 scored more points more efficiently with lower assisted FG% both 2p and 3p (dirk .485/.957, durant .42/.756), nobody talks about his 2012 run like they do dirk in 11. He had 4.0 win shares, next highest was harden at 2.6 and westbrook at 2.1, ibaka at 1.8, all of his teammates combined for 8.8; dirk had 3.6, then chandler at 2.7, terry at 2.6, kidd at 1.9, the combined total 11.1- in other words, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th guys for dirk did more than durants, same for 2 through 12. Seems like because durant's teammates had big names (despite never having accomplished anything) its assumed they did more. Or maybe because the mavs won people needed a narrative, and because durant lost nobody cares. clutchness definitely should count for something
It was most definitely because dirk won. Rightly or wrongly, players only get credit when bring team wins it all. Durant didn't so his accomplishments became a footnote. I agree it's dumb, but that's how it goes.
But my point isn't that the other Mavs players were offensively inept, it's that they can't create. There are big differences between the two. A player can still score a lot of points without being a creator, where Cedric ceballos was a great example. Dirk was pretty much the only creator on that team, whereas Westbrook and harden were both creators on that thunder team.
ok, jason kidd hall of fame point guard top 3 in assists and steals, most assists by +30 and most steals by +5 in the '11 playoffs, is not a creator. barea and terry neither. (kidd + barea combined for 10.7 apg, kidd + terry for 10.5)
durant had less of his shots assisted but westbrook and harden are better creators (9.3 apg combined).
I know assists dont tell the whole story, I agree teams could focus more on dirk because there werent as many scorers alongside him, but its a huge stretch to say there were no creators on the mavs.
agree to disagree.
Kidd was at the very tail end of his career. That's like saying Duncan had a lot of help in 03 because he had Robinson on that team.
Terry and barrea vs Westbrook and harden. Need I say more?
Assist is a very unreliable stat, as there are known cases of stat inflation for assists, and a creator doesn't necessary lead to a score or an assist.
The idea that the 2008 Hawks would take the 03 Spurs or 06 Heat to 7 games is ing hilarious.
The 2004 Pistons were a similar defense to the 2008 Celtics, but much worse offensively, so not sure where that's coming from..
I'm very interested around the basis for those claims. What type of metrics did you use?
The 2004 Pistons were a similar defense to the 2008 Celtics, but much worse offensively, so not sure where that's coming from..
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