Cavs: Team of the Decade Matchups

[Malik Hairston]

I'm very interested around the basis for those claims. What type of metrics did you use?

Regarding the 2003 Spurs and Heat? Or the Pistons?..

If it's regarding the former 2, it's pretty easy to prove their relative weakness among NBA le teams, tbh..

[jimbo]

Lol, that is just wrong. What did Dirk when he played vs. Denver in 2009 as during the series his back-then girlfriend turned out to be a fraud? He dropped 34.4/11.6/4.0 on 53/39/92. So, stop trying to use this crap as an excuse for Pau. Pau the bed and struggled offensively and defensively, mainly against Dirk.

Pau is mentally weak. Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that he wasn't MVPau that whole postseason. He clearly showed against the Hornets that he was playing like because of emotional issues, the Mavs didn't do anything special to stop him, so they don't get the credit for stopping him.

It's different from when they stopped Lebron. He had been killing it that postseason, then ran into a brick wall vs y'all.

You're either a troll or completely re ed. While I think that the 14 Spurs would likely win that matchup (they were too deep, a of a team), the 11 Mavs were much better than you think. Dirk played well in 2014 overall given his age (in the regular season, he didn't play that great in the playoffs though, that's for sure), but he was much, much better in 2011. I don't think that Splitter would be able to shut down 2011 Dirk, neither would be Diaw. The Spurs would win it as they were the better team, but to think that it would be an easy win series for the Spurs is downright delusional. Maybe you should switch your fandom and join Lakersground as you have already all the tools needed to be a successful poster over there (being completely delusional and beyond re ed).

Damn you are so ing mad right now.

The Mavs showed in that postseason that they could

1) Stop crippleball against the Blazers
2) Stop Kobe isoball + MVPussyball & immature Bynumball against the Lakers
3) Stop isoball and monkeyball against the Thunder
4) Stop isoball/non-shooting Lebron and monkeyball against the Heat

Those Mavs never ran into anything close to what we'd quantify as a "good" offensive system in 2013. Those old men would get wrecked by the kind of ball movement the '12-13' Heat or 13/14 Spurs showed. This was the first time we've seen new age offensive systems with great defenses.

That Mavs offense doesn't scare me one bit. The Spurs have the manpower to attempt to defend Dirk 1 on 1, and Pop is the guy who'll force him to score 50 by himself every game to beat us. Between Tiago and Tim he'll always have at least a competent defender on him. He'd just shoot over Diaw or get to the line vs him, so I can't see Diaw doing a whole lot in that series. And then I'm not afraid of any of your 3 point shooters or Terry if Dirk is being played 1 on 1.

So cliffs:

-Mavs' resume is overrated partly because of the name value of the opponents vs what they actually were, but mostly because I consider it a different era of basketball.
-You never played a coach as good as Pop in the 2011 run. Closest was an "i don't give a , i'm retiring" Phil. After that you had Scott Brooks and pre-non re ed Spo .
-Modern NBA offenses > old era stuff from the Mavs (esp when ran to perfection like the Spurs did this postseason...)
-The Spurs are better equipped to defend Dirk than any team in the 10s.

But you know what, I'll cut you a break. Spurs in 5

[ambchang]

Regarding the 2003 Spurs and Heat? Or the Pistons?..

If it's regarding the former 2, it's pretty easy to prove their relative weakness among NBA le teams, tbh..

Im thinking all the claims.

Is it compared across all champions or relative to peers?

[Killakobe81]

Im thinking all the claims.

Is it compared across all champions or relative to peers?

Amb, you made some excellent points with pertinent stats to back up your thoughts on Dirk's run. I wanted to add a couple points (not directed at you) since I can kicked off the whole DIrk was a bit overrated and the finals was not that impressive.

1. Part of what was impressive about Dirk in the Finals was the opponent. I know it's hard but go back to the summer before that 2011 Dirk run. Everyone here was pretty much crowning the Heat. (I initially doubted them but after they got hot to close the season I could not see them losing). As amazing as the 2014 thrashing of the heat was you could argue Dirk putting up the numbers he did against a super team like Miami with prime Lebron, Wade & Bosh (Wade was not a TOSB) was pretty damn impressive for the reasons you mentoned.

2. That is why watching the games is so key. Sure Dirk did not shoot it as well as he did in the playoffs. But as many said when needed he hit clutch shots and especially clutch Ft's. Of course that is impressive and important FT shooting down the stretch is why they lost in 2005. shaky Ft shooting was also a huge factor in the Heat beating the spurs in 2013. But again when Dirk made shots and his impact on geting open looks for his role players was very impressive.

3. Honestly what did in the Heat in 2011 was Terry finding a rhythm and Kidd, Barea, Peja even Lincoln knocking down open shots. Before Terry started taking trash and backing it up The Heat controlled that series despite how Dirk was playing. And remember dirk was sick in the Finals as well. Mavs in 2011 did what the Spurs did this year they made Spo's team pay for trapping by hitting 3's at high rate. Spurs just did it better and more efficiently. But when guys like stevenson and even Kidd are hitting 3's at a higher rate then you expect based on their carrer numbers tough to beat the Mavs. Plus Rc is probably the 2nd best coach to Pop ... Mavs will rarely lose becaus ethey are outcoached and Spo was new to the big stage.

4. Mavs were a realy good team. And I think should have been giving the opportunity to defend their le, but if your own owner thinks that the team was somewhwat "lightning in a bottle" really how can they be compared to the 2014 Spurs? I know in these discussions we are talking about the Mavs at their absolute best, but which team is more likely to be able to replicate their success against the other? the 2014 Spurs who made backtoback finals, has big 3 plus a rising 4th? and a strong favorite for next year or the one and done Mavs of 2011? I think a matchup of the 2011 Mavs vs the 2008 Celts is a better matchup, tbh. I just dont see how the 2011 Mavs beat the 2014 Spurs. I think the series would be competive (no blowouts) because they are similar in certain ways but I still think the Spurs would win in 6 or less.

[diego]

Kidd was at the very tail end of his career. That's like saying Duncan had a lot of help in 03 because he had Robinson on that team.

Terry and barrea vs Westbrook and harden. Need I say more?

Assist is a very unreliable stat, as there are known cases of stat inflation for assists, and a creator doesn't necessary lead to a score or an assist.

robinson in 03 didnt lead the ENTIRE LEAGUE in anything that playoff run the way kidd did in assists and steals in '11 (or chandler in total rebounds for that matter), he didnt even lead his team in anything . kidd had more assist and steals than lebron james in the playoffs, same number of games 178 minutes less.

Just because they were both at the end of their careers doesnt make their contributions at all comparable, which has been precisely my point from the beginning- that kidd's contribution is minimized because of his age.


and its not terry and barea vs westbrook and harden. Its kidd and terry vs westbrook and harden. you are just going by names and marketing though, there isnt some chasm between them. in fact when they played in 2011, Id go as far as to say that kidd outplayed westbrook. he had a crucial steal on him at the end of game 4 (more than double westbrook for the series, also more rebounds for the series), westbrook had more than twice as many TO and nearly half the assists, he shot a dismal .478 TS, and had a -18 net ortg / drtg while kidd was +15. But its SOOO outlandish to say kidd > westbrook, because westbrook scored 23+ and kidd less than 10.

And now assists are an unreliable stat. the same can be said for rebounds, steals, blocks, fouls, basically anything that isnt a made basket. I guess kobe is top 10 all time after all, he was such a great scorer and everything else is so unreliable and difficult to quantify.

[Brazil]

robinson in 03 didnt lead the ENTIRE LEAGUE in anything that playoff run the way kidd did in assists and steals in '11 (or chandler in total rebounds for that matter), he didnt even lead his team in anything . kidd had more assist and steals than lebron james in the playoffs, same number of games 178 minutes less.

Just because they were both at the end of their careers doesnt make their contributions at all comparable, which has been precisely my point from the beginning- that kidd's contribution is minimized because of his age.


and its not terry and barea vs westbrook and harden. Its kidd and terry vs westbrook and harden. you are just going by names and marketing though, there isnt some chasm between them. in fact when they played in 2011, Id go as far as to say that kidd outplayed westbrook. he had a crucial steal on him at the end of game 4 (more than double westbrook for the series, also more rebounds for the series), westbrook had more than twice as many TO and nearly half the assists, he shot a dismal .478 TS, and had a -18 net ortg / drtg while kidd was +15. But its SOOO outlandish to say kidd > westbrook, because westbrook scored 23+ and kidd less than 10.

And now assists are an unreliable stat. the same can be said for rebounds, steals, blocks, fouls, basically anything that isnt a made basket. I guess kobe is top 10 all time after all, he was such a great scorer and everything else is so unreliable and difficult to quantify.

not sure what kind of agenda you have tbh

Kidd was passing the ball, creating for the others and hitting the 3s now he was also a headache on mavs offense because of his incapacity to go to the rim and shoot JS, his FG% on 2 pointers were bad. More problematic on dat is the fact he regularly passed these open 2s the defense was giving him which was breaking Mavs O resulting some contested shots with clock running down by Terry, Dirk or even Marion.

Except for Dirk, 2 3s per game from Kidd, the only reliable O production came from Terry... that's about it. If you play the mavs in 2011, what kind of focus on D you need to have ? you close on 3 pts shooters and then we just try to stop Dirk...

But now go ahead and try to explain Kidd and Terry somehow is better than Westbrook and Harden...

[Sportstudi]

Pau is mentally weak. Who cares? It doesn't change the fact that he wasn't MVPau that whole postseason. He clearly showed against the Hornets that he was playing like because of emotional issues, the Mavs didn't do anything special to stop him, so they don't get the credit for stopping him.

It's different from when they stopped Lebron. He had been killing it that postseason, then ran into a brick wall vs y'all.

Damn you are so ing mad right now.

The Mavs showed in that postseason that they could

1) Stop crippleball against the Blazers
2) Stop Kobe isoball + MVPussyball & immature Bynumball against the Lakers
3) Stop isoball and monkeyball against the Thunder
4) Stop isoball/non-shooting Lebron and monkeyball against the Heat

Those Mavs never ran into anything close to what we'd quantify as a "good" offensive system in 2013. Those old men would get wrecked by the kind of ball movement the '12-13' Heat or 13/14 Spurs showed. This was the first time we've seen new age offensive systems with great defenses.

That Mavs offense doesn't scare me one bit. The Spurs have the manpower to attempt to defend Dirk 1 on 1, and Pop is the guy who'll force him to score 50 by himself every game to beat us. Between Tiago and Tim he'll always have at least a competent defender on him. He'd just shoot over Diaw or get to the line vs him, so I can't see Diaw doing a whole lot in that series. And then I'm not afraid of any of your 3 point shooters or Terry if Dirk is being played 1 on 1.

So cliffs:

-Mavs' resume is overrated partly because of the name value of the opponents vs what they actually were, but mostly because I consider it a different era of basketball.
-You never played a coach as good as Pop in the 2011 run. Closest was an "i don't give a , i'm retiring" Phil. After that you had Scott Brooks and pre-non re ed Spo .
-Modern NBA offenses > old era stuff from the Mavs (esp when ran to perfection like the Spurs did this postseason...)
-The Spurs are better equipped to defend Dirk than any team in the 10s.

But you know what, I'll cut you a break. Spurs in 5

Thanks for proving my thoughts about you. Really, join Lakersground. Delusional idiots galore. You should feel like home over there. I rest my case, I don't see any sense in arguing with a braindead idiot.

[Sportstudi]

not sure what kind of agenda you have tbh

Kidd was passing the ball, creating for the others and hitting the 3s now he was also a headache on mavs offense because of his incapacity to go to the rim and shoot JS, his FG% on 2 pointers were bad. More problematic on dat is the fact he regularly passed these open 2s the defense was giving him which was breaking Mavs O resulting some contested shots with clock running down by Terry, Dirk or even Marion.

Except for Dirk, 2 3s per game from Kidd, the only reliable O production came from Terry... that's about it. If you play the mavs in 2011, what kind of focus on D you need to have ? you close on 3 pts shooters and then we just try to stop Dirk...

But now go ahead and try to explain Kidd and Terry somehow is better than Westbrook and Harden...

For me it seems like he has tremendous problems to give Dirk the props he deserves. Seems like he can't accept the fact that Dallas isn't the stepchild of Texas anymore and that Dirk led his team to a ring as the main man.

[100%duncan]

For me it seems like he has tremendous problems to give Dirk the props he deserves. Seems like he can't accept the fact that Dallas isn't the stepchild of Texas anymore and that Dirk led his team to a ring as the main man.

Lots of posters hating on your '11 mavs imho we got yer back

[Brazil]

For me it seems like he has tremendous problems to give Dirk the props he deserves. Seems like he can't accept the fact that Dallas isn't the stepchild of Texas anymore and that Dirk led his team to a ring as the main man.

he is probably a manu > dirk guy so if he can discredit a bit dirk's achievements that's all good for his church I guess

[ambchang]

robinson in 03 didnt lead the ENTIRE LEAGUE in anything that playoff run the way kidd did in assists and steals in '11 (or chandler in total rebounds for that matter), he didnt even lead his team in anything . kidd had more assist and steals than lebron james in the playoffs, same number of games 178 minutes less.

Just because they were both at the end of their careers doesnt make their contributions at all comparable, which has been precisely my point from the beginning- that kidd's contribution is minimized because of his age.


and its not terry and barea vs westbrook and harden. Its kidd and terry vs westbrook and harden. you are just going by names and marketing though, there isnt some chasm between them. in fact when they played in 2011, Id go as far as to say that kidd outplayed westbrook. he had a crucial steal on him at the end of game 4 (more than double westbrook for the series, also more rebounds for the series), westbrook had more than twice as many TO and nearly half the assists, he shot a dismal .478 TS, and had a -18 net ortg / drtg while kidd was +15. But its SOOO outlandish to say kidd > westbrook, because westbrook scored 23+ and kidd less than 10.

And now assists are an unreliable stat. the same can be said for rebounds, steals, blocks, fouls, basically anything that isnt a made basket. I guess kobe is top 10 all time after all, he was such a great scorer and everything else is so unreliable and difficult to quantify.

Leadinng anything in playoffs is misleading because the number of games played. Essentially, you are the best of the two finalist teams because those teams generally play the most games. And comparing Kidd, who is a PG, to James, who is a SF, in assists, is about as inaccurate as possible. Not to mention they faced off totally different teams (where as in the regular season you still face off the same 29 teams, only in different number of times), and the comparison is just moot.

To top it off, Lebron James, as a SF, actually had more assists per game than Kidd did.

Robinson an important part of Spurs defense in 03, much like Kidd's role on offense with the Mavs in 11. But Robinson still wasn't even close to the main reason the Spurs won it all in 03, it was because of Duncan, much like it was because of Dirk in 11 while every other Mav was a distant second. I am not sure if Kidd is your dad, but nobody is saying that he didn't contribute, just that his contribution, as the second best offensive creator of the team, was miles away from Dirk. Dirk in 11 was the Mavs offense. Only 48.5% of his 2 pters were assisted, and that would rank him #8 out of the 12 Mavs in the playoffs, while he scored an amazing 39.1pp100.

You want to comapre Kidd an Terry to Westbrook and Haren? Sure. I just have a problem that you are somehow dismissing the scoring portion of it as some soft of minor statistics.

Harden had a ORtg of 130 in that series, while Kidd had a 121. Westbrook stunk with 99, but Terry himself was at 101.

In that series, Dirk had a gamescore of 23.5, second was kidd at 14.1. Terry #6 on the Mavs at 8.4. Compare that to OKC, where Durant had a 19.7 gamescore and westrbrook and harden had 13.2 and 12.8.

And assists have been widely known as an extremely unreliable stat, where numbers were inflated by the score keepers all the time. Rebounds, steals, blocks and fouls are not unreliable, they happened when they happened. Assists are oftentime counted as assists by the home score keepers to inflat numbers.

Also, a creator who passed the ball to another player, who then proceed to pass the ball to the third player do not get credit of the assist, despite the fact that the first player created the lay to begin with.

Finally, answer me this, was the 2011 Mavs offense built entirely around Dirk? Yes or no? The Heat offense was built around Wade in 06 and Lebron in 13, 03 Spurs was built around Duncan, 3peat lakers were built around Shaq. Dirk was simply hauling that 11 Mavs offense through the playoffs like those other players. The only difference is Lebron had Wade, 06 Heat sucked, and Duncan's 03 playoff run was historical, much like Dirk's 11 run.

[scanry]

looks Korean to me bro

Looks Chinese dude. Koreans are usually shorter and dress pretty well tbh. Them Korean women on the other hand are pretty.

[scanry]

For me it seems like he has tremendous problems to give Dirk the props he deserves. Seems like he can't accept the fact that Dallas isn't the stepchild of Texas anymore and that Dirk led his team to a ring as the main man.

Dirk arguably had the best offensive series (against OKC) since Shaq in 2002 finals. He was hitting clutch shot after clutch shot.

[jimbo]

Should have told the NBA to be better back then. 2011 was a pretty damn weak year tbh...

Lakers were dead.
Celtics were dying and got Lebron'd.
Spurs were gimmicky.
Heat -> ISOball + transition
Thunder -> ISOball + transition

[jimbo]

Dirk arguably had the best offensive series (against OKC) since Shaq in 2002 finals. He was hitting clutch shot after clutch shot.

2009 Lebron vs the Magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk's OKC series

Those numbers were just unreal...

[Ghazi]

Lakers were not dead in 2011, the Mavs made them look dead. the Thunder had an incredibly talented roster, although young. the Heat were not transitioning, they were a really good team that year.

[jimbo]

The heart of their team was neutered by his girlfriend. Without MVPau they went from a repeating team to getting beat twice by CP3's Hornets .

I'm sure if Dirk broke his foot and only averaged 13 ppg Mavfan would be coming up with excuses on excuses. (And yes i'm equating Dirk breaking his foot to Pau having his heart broken. He's a sensitive soul.)

And I didn't mean transition as in they were in a transitional period, but instead from where their offense came from. The Heat were a really good defensive team, but they were still pretty bad w/ regards to playing playoff offense.

Tbh the most impressive thing the Mavs did was stifle the Heat so much that it made everyone realize " , we need to actually spread the floor."

[Phillip]

he is probably a manu > dirk guy so if he can discredit a bit dirk's achievements that's all good for his church I guess

[diego]

Leadinng anything in playoffs is misleading because the number of games played. Essentially, you are the best of the two finalist teams because those teams generally play the most games. And comparing Kidd, who is a PG, to James, who is a SF, in assists, is about as inaccurate as possible. Not to mention they faced off totally different teams (where as in the regular season you still face off the same 29 teams, only in different number of times), and the comparison is just moot.

To top it off, Lebron James, as a SF, actually had more assists per game than Kidd did.

First off, Lebron james has 123 assists in 21 games/922 minutes, kidd 153 in 21 games/744 minutes. Kidd assisted more and at a higher rate, there's no way around that. Of course Lebron is a SF and kidd is a PG, of course Lebron is better than kidd- I listed him because he's second and played the same number of games, and because one of the things he is known for is being a great playmaker who just happened to be entering his prime, who can take advantage of his shot making ability to create for others. Likewise, jason kidd is known for being a fantastic floor general who knows how to control the flow of the game and set teammates up, his lack of scoring never impeded that. Its still a notable feat that has only happened 48 times in league history- nobody had 153 assists in 2013, 2009, 2004, 2001, and so on. perhaps some of those years the finalists played less games, perhaps its not the same to do it over 5 games vs 20+. Either way the only players who had a higher APG in 2011 were Paul (6 games) Rondo (9) and Rose (16)- thats elite company for a 38 year old point guard.

Robinson an important part of Spurs defense in 03, much like Kidd's role on offense with the Mavs in 11. But Robinson still wasn't even close to the main reason the Spurs won it all in 03, it was because of Duncan, much like it was because of Dirk in 11 while every other Mav was a distant second. I am not sure if Kidd is your dad, but nobody is saying that he didn't contribute, just that his contribution, as the second best offensive creator of the team, was miles away from Dirk. Dirk in 11 was the Mavs offense. Only 48.5% of his 2 pters were assisted, and that would rank him #8 out of the 12 Mavs in the playoffs, while he scored an amazing 39.1pp100.

David robinson played a solid role for the 03 spurs manning the paint and defending. jason kidd ran the offense, defended very well (it was one of the storylines of the playoffs, him checking kobe, westbrook and wade), and did the exact opposite of brazil's rajon rondo comparison by shooting the 3 pointer beyond his usual level and making defenses pay for cheating off him. he lead his team for 3s taken and 3s made, despite having 2nd coming of jesus dirk playing next to him (6th in percentage behind dirk, terry stevenson and stojakovic- thats a lot of shooters). Im not kidd's agent or relative but his play / role is being diminished, he did more than robinson, who played 12 minutes less per game by the way.

You want to comapre Kidd an Terry to Westbrook and Haren? Sure. I just have a problem that you are somehow dismissing the scoring portion of it as some soft of minor statistics.

Harden had a ORtg of 130 in that series, while Kidd had a 121. Westbrook stunk with 99, but Terry himself was at 101.

In that series, Dirk had a gamescore of 23.5, second was kidd at 14.1. Terry #6 on the Mavs at 8.4. Compare that to OKC, where Durant had a 19.7 gamescore and westrbrook and harden had 13.2 and 12.8.



And assists have been widely known as an extremely unreliable stat, where numbers were inflated by the score keepers all the time. Rebounds, steals, blocks and fouls are not unreliable, they happened when they happened. Assists are oftentime counted as assists by the home score keepers to inflat numbers.

Also, a creator who passed the ball to another player, who then proceed to pass the ball to the third player do not get credit of the assist, despite the fact that the first player created the lay to begin with.

Outside of made baskets all stats have human error. There are a bunch of plays that dont make it to the boxscore. you posted okc's top 3 players game scores, 19.7, 13.2, 12.8. The mavs best three are 23.5, 14.1, 12.2. By my math dirk's next two did more than durants. My point is is that kidd produced at a level closer to a westbrook/harden than a 03 robinson, and i think it stands.

Finally, answer me this, was the 2011 Mavs offense built entirely around Dirk? Yes or no? The Heat offense was built around Wade in 06 and Lebron in 13, 03 Spurs was built around Duncan, 3peat lakers were built around Shaq. Dirk was simply hauling that 11 Mavs offense through the playoffs like those other players. The only difference is Lebron had Wade, 06 Heat sucked, and Duncan's 03 playoff run was historical, much like Dirk's 11 run.

I've already acknowledged my bias against dirk, that i rooted for the mavs anyway in 2011, that he was clearly the best player on his team and had a very good run, he scored a ton efficiently and he was clutch. My argument is that a lot of his cast gets undervalued for their contributions, basically because most of them played above their heads and that gets forgotten. I dont think duncans cast in 03 played quite as well as dirk's in 11(I do remember the kerr and sjax 3 pt barrages), and I think duncan did much more (twice as much you could say considering defense) and thus i dont think dirk 2011 is on the same level of a duncan 03.

[scanry]

2009 Lebron vs the Magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk's OKC series

Those numbers were just unreal...

Dirk was hitting daggers especially in the 4th quarters against the Thunder. He was also unconscious with his one legged fadeaway jumpers and crazy FG% efficiency. Lebron also shot a lot more free throws tbh.

[ambchang]

First off, Lebron james has 123 assists in 21 games/922 minutes, kidd 153 in 21 games/744 minutes. Kidd assisted more and at a higher rate, there's no way around that. Of course Lebron is a SF and kidd is a PG, of course Lebron is better than kidd- I listed him because he's second and played the same number of games, and because one of the things he is known for is being a great playmaker who just happened to be entering his prime, who can take advantage of his shot making ability to create for others. Likewise, jason kidd is known for being a fantastic floor general who knows how to control the flow of the game and set teammates up, his lack of scoring never impeded that. Its still a notable feat that has only happened 48 times in league history- nobody had 153 assists in 2013, 2009, 2004, 2001, and so on. perhaps some of those years the finalists played less games, perhaps its not the same to do it over 5 games vs 20+. Either way the only players who had a higher APG in 2011 were Paul (6 games) Rondo (9) and Rose (16)- thats elite company for a 38 year old point guard.

My bad, looked up the 09-10 stats of Lebron instead.

However, the point still stands, Kidd finished 4th in the playoff assists per game that year. That's a sharp drop from his previous years, where he routinely finished in the top 3 with higher averages.

Yes, it is elite for a 38 year old PG, and it's nice that you have to put that age caveat in because both you and I know it's nothing that's overly special for a PG in his prime. It's only impressive when you put his age in context, which goes back to the original point, Dirk didn't get the type of offensive support on a championship team that top dogs on championship teams usually get. A 38-year old point guard who puts up 7 assists, scores 9 ppg on 40% shooting and shoots 1.4 FTA is not consistent offensive help. If someone who has 0.9 ws in the entire playoffs is your second best offensive creator, you are in trouble.

David robinson played a solid role for the 03 spurs manning the paint and defending. jason kidd ran the offense, defended very well (it was one of the storylines of the playoffs, him checking kobe, westbrook and wade), and did the exact opposite of brazil's rajon rondo comparison by shooting the 3 pointer beyond his usual level and making defenses pay for cheating off him. he lead his team for 3s taken and 3s made, despite having 2nd coming of jesus dirk playing next to him (6th in percentage behind dirk, terry stevenson and stojakovic- thats a lot of shooters). Im not kidd's agent or relative but his play / role is being diminished, he did more than robinson, who played 12 minutes less per game by the way.

Diminished in what way? Outside of Stephen Jackson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili in 2003, Shaq in 2001, and Vernon Maxwell in 1994, I can't think of a worst 2nd best offensive creator on a championship team.

And no, I am not talking about him on defense, the entire case of Dirk's incredible 2011 run was the way he carried the Mavs offense, scoring clutch bucket after clutch bucket when the opposition is set out to stop him.

Outside of made baskets all stats have human error. There are a bunch of plays that dont make it to the boxscore. you posted okc's top 3 players game scores, 19.7, 13.2, 12.8. The mavs best three are 23.5, 14.1, 12.2. By my math dirk's next two did more than durants. My point is is that kidd produced at a level closer to a westbrook/harden than a 03 robinson, and i think it stands.

In the 4 series in 2003, Robinson had game scores of 11.9, 5.1, 5.1 and 9.7. (average 7.95)

Kidd in the 4 series in 2011, had game scores of 8.0, 14.1, 7.1, and 12.5 (average 10.4)

Westbrook and Harden, in the 3 series in 2011, had game scores of 13.2/12.8, 16.3/12.9, and 15.1/9.4 (average 14.9/11.7)

So, Dirk's best 2nd option, had an average gmscore (I know this shouldn't be used this way, but I can't really calculate the gmscore for the entire playoffs without the raw data) was 2.45 better than Duncan's 3rd or 4th best in 2003), and 1.3 worst than the third option and 4.5 worst than the 2nd option on a Durant team that didn't even win a championship. And no, Harden's and Westbrook's average gmscore has a bigger difference with Kidd's gmscore vs. the Robinson gmscore.

I've already acknowledged my bias against dirk, that i rooted for the mavs anyway in 2011, that he was clearly the best player on his team and had a very good run, he scored a ton efficiently and he was clutch. My argument is that a lot of his cast gets undervalued for their contributions, basically because most of them played above their heads and that gets forgotten. I dont think duncans cast in 03 played quite as well as dirk's in 11(I do remember the kerr and sjax 3 pt barrages), and I think duncan did much more (twice as much you could say considering defense) and thus i dont think dirk 2011 is on the same level of a duncan 03.

Who said Dirk's 11 playoff was on the same level of Duncan's 03 playoff run? Duncan's 03, Hakeems 94, and Dirk's 11 playoff runs were a few of the rare runs that had a superstar carry the entire team's offense to a championship, despite being the obvious point of focus for the opposition defense. It happened 3 times over a span of 20 years.

Obviously, Hakeem and Duncan manned the defense as well, but Dirk's offensive output in the 2011 playoff run was one of the best in the history of the league.

[jimbo]

Dirk was hitting daggers especially in the 4th quarters against the Thunder. He was also unconscious with his one legged fadeaway jumpers and crazy FG% efficiency. Lebron also shot a lot more free throws tbh.

Lebrun had one of his more iconic game winners against the Magic...that buzzer beating 3.

And we'll see plenty of players hit daggers in the 4th again

Whos the next player to average 38.5 8.2 8 in a playoff series?

[jimbo]

...and crazy field goal efficiency? he only shot 55.7%. I'm 100% sure lebron has had a series that has beaten that from the last couple years. I'll look it up later.