Adrian Peterson indicted on child abuse charges

[spurraider21]

pain is a universal language. have you ever actually tried having a discussion or conversation with a 4 year old? you think you can adequately explain to them why, for example, hitting the other child was bad? when you're talking to teenagers they'll probably ignore you while having a mental conversation where they are rebutting everything you are saying (while staying silent and pretending to listen).

i would like to give a disclaimer that parents hitting kids for the fun of it or as a first response to everything is obviously not acceptable. parents who take pride in hitting their kids are probably sick at some level. nobody enjoys, or rather, should enjoy inflicting pain to their children.

that being said i've always understood the difference between causing pain and causing injury. earlier in the conversation chinook brought up how he would get pinched (and not a light, playful pinched). the pain will be well received but its not going to emotionally cripple anybody to get pinched like that ... my parents would slap open palm (never backhand). if you've ever been slapped you know it hurts like a in the moment but its not going to cause any serious damage. i've never been belted, but as long as its not the buckle and and is administered with some sort of attention it shouldn't be to different. if you are causing lacerations like peterson, it's probably going to far. if you are literally beating on the kid to the point where they've got bruises all over, its probably excessive. the initial pain is what gets the message across. causing injury is what could lead to the emotional problems havoc was referring to.

i had the same mentality when i played soccer. i usually played keeper. i'll be honest... i didnt mind if i hurt the other kids. i didnt go out of my way to lunge at their knees, but i was probably the most aggressive keeper in the league (AYSO), at least in my region. after getting kicked in the face/stomach a few times while going for a play, i starting going at them and turning my back as i went down, so they would trip and lunge over every time. they wouldn't attack nearly as aggressively on a break the next time around, usually. difference between causing pain and causing injury

[spurraider21]

And now we're out with it. Research is biased and therefore inaccurate. Science is all just a social game with no validity because it's the popular opinion that really decides (you know, despite a vast number of households in the US probably in excess of 50% that believe in CP). So predictable. This discussion is over. Your opinion is above the science, so I don't know why you bothered to even entertain the discussion.

i was about to go on a long winded response... but i see chinook is still in the thread so i'll just stay out of his way

[Cry Havoc]

pain is a universal language. have you ever actually tried having a discussion or conversation with a 4 year old? you think you can adequately explain to them why, for example, hitting the other child was bad? when you're talking to teenagers they'll probably ignore you while having a mental conversation where they are rebutting everything you are saying (while staying silent and pretending to listen).

i would like to give a disclaimer that parents hitting kids for the fun of it or as a first response to everything is obviously not acceptable. parents who take pride in hitting their kids are probably sick at some level. nobody enjoys, or rather, should enjoy inflicting pain to their children.

that being said i've always understood the difference between causing pain and causing injury. earlier in the conversation chinook brought up how he would get pinched (and not a light, playful pinched). the pain will be well received but its not going to emotionally cripple anybody to get pinched like that ... my parents would slap open palm (never backhand). if you've ever been slapped you know it hurts like a in the moment but its not going to cause any serious damage. i've never been belted, but as long as its not the buckle and and is administered with some sort of attention it shouldn't be to different. if you are causing lacerations like peterson, it's probably going to far. if you are literally beating on the kid to the point where they've got bruises all over, its probably excessive. the initial pain is what gets the message across. causing injury is what could lead to the emotional problems havoc was referring to.

i had the same mentality when i played soccer. i usually played keeper. i'll be honest... i didnt mind if i hurt the other kids. i didnt go out of my way to lunge at their knees, but i was probably the most aggressive keeper in the league (AYSO), at least in my region. after getting kicked in the face/stomach a few times while going for a play, i starting going at them and turning my back as i went down, so they would trip and lunge over every time. they wouldn't attack nearly as aggressively on a break the next time around, usually.

The fact that you got hit as a child and was willing to cause pain in other children is exactly what the research alludes to, spurraider.

[Chinook]

And now we're out with it. Research is biased and therefore inaccurate. Science is all just a social game with no validity because it's the popular opinion that really decides (you know, despite a vast number of households in the US probably in excess of 50% that believe in CP). So predictable. This discussion is over. Your opinion is above the science, so I don't know why you bothered to even entertain the discussion.

What? That's not what I said at all. I said that it's not going to be easy to find articles that say "Hitting your kids is wonderful." There's just no research in it. Is there an Association for the Spanking of Our Kids that is waiting around to fund these things? If you don't think research is done with an agenda in mind, you've never done any yourself. You also have never had to get a paper published in a journal, lest you know the politics of it.

But if you want to end the discussion, that's fine by me. You leave with the same misconceptions you came in with. No skin off my back.

[Cry Havoc]

i was about to go on a long winded response... but i see chinook is still in the thread so i'll just stay out of his way

Meh. I'm sure he's got something cooked up about how the data is always skewed, the numbers don't add up, etc. Basically it means "I don't believe in the science because it disagrees with me and I think I'm smarter." It's really ing common and signifies the end of any progress that can be made in a debate such as this.

[Cry Havoc]

What? That's not what I said at all. I said that it's not going to be easy to find articles that say "Hitting your kids is wonderful." There's just no research in it. Is there an Association for the Spanking of Our Kids that is waiting around to fund these things? If you don't think research is done with an agenda in mind, you've never done any yourself. You also have never had to get a paper published in a journal, lest you know the politics of it.

But if you want to end the discussion, that's fine by me. You leave with the same misconceptions you came in with. No skin off my back.

I didn't say that. I said, "Find a study that supports any kind of corporeal punishment." Surely if the numbers of people who engage in it are as vast as you claim, and that it's driven by politics, someone, somewhere would have SOMETHING on the issue that gives it some validity, right? You really think EVERY academic ins ution around the world would reject a paper because they don't like the politics of it? Are you mad? Universities publish stuff on a daily basis that rustles people's jimmies.

[spurraider21]

The fact that you got hit as a child and was willing to cause pain in other children is exactly what the research alludes to, spurraider.

truth be told i've never been in a fistfight that wasn't sparring. as much as we like to joke about how "european" it is, soccer can get violent when two guys are going at the ball. i could have kept playing the same way, keeping my face/front towards the ball while going down, but when you start getting kicked in sensitive areas like the face, stomach, and the...lower stomach, you need to adjust, so i developed a new habit of sliding and turning... as i said, i never aimed for anybody's knees are intended to injury anybody. but if somebody is going to take the brunt of an inevitable collision, better them than me. i'll never feel remorseful for that and lol at anybody who says otherwise

my aggressive nature as a keeper also had a lot to do with my frame and size relative to the goal. i never attacked a player because i wanted to hurt them . that being said anybody who engages in a sort of violence should understand the difference between causing pain and injury. i could have slid in dirty ways that would take people out. sweep the proverbial leg. people who do stuff like that (bruce bowen) are sick

[Cry Havoc]

truth be told i've never been in a fistfight that wasn't sparring. as much as we like to joke about how "european" it is, soccer can get violent when two guys are going at the ball. i could have kept playing the same way, keeping my face/front towards the ball while going down, but when you start getting kicked in sensitive areas like the face, stomach, and the...lower stomach, you need to adjust, so i developed a new habit of sliding and turning... as i said, i never aimed for anybody's knees are intended to injury anybody. but if somebody is going to take the brunt of an inevitable collision, better them than me. i'll never feel remorseful for that and lol at anybody who says otherwise

my aggressive nature as a keeper also had a lot to do with my frame and size relative to the goal. i never attacked a player because i wanted to hurt them . that being said anybody who engages in a sort of violence should understand the difference between causing pain and injury. i could have slid in dirty ways that would take people out. sweep the proverbial leg. people who do stuff like that (bruce bowen) are sick

Not saying you should. Also worth pointing out that this is sports between equally sized participants and that there is an agreed upon level of contact between the teams beforehand. If someone bodies me in a basketball game that's a HUGE difference than if some random dude on the street does it.

[Chinook]

I didn't say that. I said, "Find a study that supports any kind of corporeal punishment." Surely if the numbers of people who engage in it are as vast as you claim, and that it's driven by politics, someone, somewhere would have SOMETHING on the issue that gives it some validity, right? You really think EVERY academic ins ution around the world would reject a paper because they don't like the politics of it? Are you mad? Universities publish stuff on a daily basis that rustles people's jimmies.

And that's why I said that I'd look. And I am looking. Found some, but I can only view the abstracts right now. The gist of them is that parent reputation matters the most. If kids don't respect you, then no punishment will work. But if they do, they will be inclined to associate the pain with the behavior, not with the person. But that's from this extremely long meta-analysis.

http://www.comm.umn.edu/~akoerner/co...f%20(2002).pdf

I want the actual papers it cites. Because, as I told you earlier, I don't like taking someone else's interpretation of the research if I can evaluate it myself.

[spurraider21]

Not saying you should. Also worth pointing out that this is sports between equally sized participants and that there is an agreed upon level of contact between the teams beforehand. If someone bodies me in a basketball game that's a HUGE difference than if some random dude on the street does it.

right. when i brought up my soccer parallel it was aimed at further defining the difference between causing injury and harm. so using my soccer example and saying "see! ur violent because u were hit" is way off base

[spurraider21]

And that's why I said that I'd look. And I am looking. Found some, but I can only view the abstracts right now. The gist of them is that parent reputation matters the most. If kids don't respect you, then no punishment will work. But if they do, they will be inclined to associate the pain with the behavior, not with the person. But that's from this extremely long meta-analysis. (http://www.comm.umn.edu/~akoerner/co...%20(2002).pdf) I want the actual papers it cites. Because, as I told you earlier, I don't like taking someone else's interpretation of the research if I can evaluate it myself.

i'm getting the big ol' 404 message. u gotta take that last parenthesis out of the hyperlink

[Chinook]

Meh. I'm sure he's got something cooked up about how the data is always skewed, the numbers don't add up, etc. Basically it means "I don't believe in the science because it disagrees with me and I think I'm smarter." It's really ing common and signifies the end of any progress that can be made in a debate such as this.

Did you read the AAAP paper you posted? It literally says that they can't find a significant correlation between moderate spanking and an increase in violence when they factor out socioeconomic factors. The article which cited the study was disingenuous, because it implied the study was able to find a correlation. That's why I like to read the papers.

The other study you specifically linked wasn't a study. It was a report that didn't have much to do with anything. It was a list of CP policies from around the world and recommendations on how people should treat their kids. What the was CNN citing there?

[Chinook]

i'm getting the big ol' 404 message. u gotta take that last parenthesis out of the hyperlink

Is it fixed?

Also, why the didn't you just take the parenthesis out of the URL and hit 'enter'?

[Chinook]

Holy crap, Cry Havoc I'm reading the original meta-analysis that you posted. Funny how I was parsing it for studies supporting CP when that article you linked parsed it for studies panning CP. It shows why source material is important.

[Avante]

All this simply because a guy is too strong to be whipping anyone.

[spurraider21]

Is it fixed?

Also, why the didn't you just take the parenthesis out of the URL and hit 'enter'?

i did lol... just wanted to make it easier for the rest of the thread

[Aztecfan03]

Yeah, that seems odd--not sure if I would feel comfortable physically disciplining my niece and my nephew. I scold them verbally at times and educate them on their actions, but overall disciplining in the spanking sense would not be my forte.

I and my brother were spanked along with our cousins by our aunt when she babysat us so it seems fine to me.

[Aztecfan03]

All right. So I've read the study a couple of times (not uber closely, but I did make sure to go through the important parts at least once).

It looks like the set-up is that they (meaning the FFCWS) went to the houses of a bunch of women and asked them how often they hit their kids over the course of the previous month. Then, they asked them how much of an asshole their kids were in school (or wherever three-year-olds go). Two years later, they visited the same women and ask how big of an asshole their kids were now. They (meaning the researchers) gave asshole rating based on what I assume was a pre-determined quantification scale (which is typical and completely reasonable).

There are a few things wrong with this methodology. First, is that relying on self-reporting is a big deal. Parents who abuse their kids are likely to under report, which drives the critical value down significantly (or can). Secondly, the parents are not necessarily reliable sources for reporting the misconduct of their kids. I imagine (but don't know) that parents who don't hit their kids may be more likely to see their children favorably than parents who are more combative. That's idle speculation on my part, but it's something to be considered. Also, the demographic distribution seems to be skewed, since self-reporting and participation in general is usually done by certain types of people. Really abusive parents or apathetic parents probably don't want to be part of such a study.

As far as the stats go, they try to control for a ton of demographic factors, but in doing so, they end up getting non-significant results from folks who spanked their kids to a moderate extent. One thing that seems to be missing is a distribution chart for numbers of CP incidents, which would be interesting for me to see. They don't even seem to have that data available, so I can't even see a variance or mean.

In the end, it looks like the study says that if you hit your kids a lot, then they end up being aggressive (which is defined extremely generously here). But this is a very noisy study, and the numbers don't look nearly as good when you start to parse through them. I'd like to see some raw data, since having only three barrels (but still using a continuous scale for some reason) doesn't instill in me much confidence.

ANd one month is WAY too short of a time span.

[DJR210]

Reggie Bush
"harshly disciplining a 1 year old"

[TDMVPDPOY]

the pussification of america continues

fck these laws and , remember when spanking a kid to teach them discipline was the norm, now these days they will run to the authorities

be careful what u wish for, put into foster care with wankers or boarding accomondation aka church care get fed a nice round

[benefactor]

wtf are you talking about ? if the state don't protect childs from abusive parents who is gonna do it ?

You mean Child Unprotective Services? Yeah, those guys.

[Blake]

the pussification of america continues

fck these laws and , remember when spanking a kid to teach them discipline was the norm, now these days they will run to the authorities

be careful what u wish for, put into foster care with wankers or boarding accomondation aka church care get fed a nice round

Hey remember when whipping slaves to teach them discipline was the norm now they run to authorities

good ol days
pussification of America

[leemajors]

Suspended indefinitely now:

http://deadspin.com/vikings-change-t...exe-1635690571

[Bill_Brasky]

You mean Child Unprotective Services? Yeah, those guys.

yeah they really ed up the Colton Turner thing. I can count about 10 adults + CPS that had a chance to do something and failed that child.

[Bill_Brasky]

Also, i always hate how people make this out to be a black and white issue. Nothing in life ever is. Some kids respond differently to different punishments. It is on the parent to pay attention and figure out what works best. Sometimes a smack to the butt can be exactly what a kid needs to shape up. Just depends on context.