I don't know, win-share, adjusted +/-, PER, all that crap. Everytime someone posts one of those all-time lists Ginobili is always right up there.
* Havlicek is top 20 easy:
8 NBA les
1 Finals MVP
4 times 1st team all NBA
* Elvin Hayes played in 12 straight all-star games. He is 8th all time in points and 4th all time in rebounds. He was a top 10 shot blocker for the first 8 years the stat was kept (starting with his 6th season).
That sounds pretty high. I can see WS/48 or PER, because Manu is just incredibly productive when he's on the floor. The problem is that he is not on the floor enough.
There is no doubt that Manu is the best sixth man of all time (imho), better than Bobby Jones, better than McHale, but the problem is that he didn't play as many minutes as those guys.
It's just that Manu, at no point in time, was considered a top 5 player in the league, and I just can't find any top 30 players of all time who were not top 5 in the league at any point in time.
No way man. Those 6 of those 8 les were on stacked Bill Russell led Boston teams. Havlicek was at best the 2nd best players on those teams, and most often third or fourth best.
The last two were with Dave Cowens, who was clearly the best player on those teams.
Sure he won a Finals MVP, but he won it in possibly the worst era in basketball (ABA, cocaine), and besides, Tony Parker, Billups and Dennis Johnson (God bless his soul) won the Finals MVP, but they are no where even close to top 20.
Finally, for a guy who plays in a weak position (SF and SG in the 70s is pretty weak) for 17 years and only made all-nba 1st team four times actually tells you something. He was, at his peak, the 5th best player in the league, and that when all the high flyers went to the ABA to cash in.
Hondo is a great hustle guy, extremely inefficient, but played for a long long time. He had a motor that wouldn't stop, but he is like Jerry Sloan on steroids, or a less efficient Frazier (who I'd pick over Hondo). No way was he top 20.
Top 10 (in no particular order):
Wilt
Russell
Jabbar
Magic
Jordan
Bird
Duncan
Moses
Hakeem
Shaq
Next 10 (no particular order as well):
Big O
Lebron
Kobe
Garnett
Dr J
Walton (peak was way too short, he could have been top 5)
Robinson
Kobe
Isiah
West
Hayes was the ultimate ball hog. The league had a few guys like that (Walt Bellemy for one), where he put up empty stats on crappy teams. The Bullets team was widely considered as one of the weakest championships of all time (along with the Sonics), and Dandridge and Unseld were better players than Hayes.
Hayes shot 45% as a big man in the 70s for his career, I mean, how do you even do that? He's like a super charged Shareef Abdul-Rahim. I am not trying to bash him, but there are many players I'd pick over Hayes. Many.
TP at only # 157? WTF???
Top 10 (in order):
Jordan
Jabbar
Duncan
Magic
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Bob Cousy
Lebron
Shaq
Next 10 (in order):
Wilt
Karl Malone
John Havlicek
Hakeem
West
Bob Pet
Big O
Elgin Baylor
Sam Jones
Scottie Pippen
Your mom must have been drinking when she was nursing you.
yur just jealous of my list!
Dude's been pushing this ty Elo system to rank different people. Get your got ass back upstairs and talk about the cons ution or Ron ing Paul.
Buddy.yur just jealous of my list!
Malone?
Kobe that high?
Havlicek?
Cousy?
Sam jones?
Sam Jones won 10 NBA championships.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Team accomplishments.
Jordan only won six, why isn't jones > Jordan?
Jones achieved more than Jordan. He was also better at the bank shot.
So Jones > Jordan?
Galileo is bat crazy
Jones outplayed Oscar Robertson in game 7 of the NBA playoffs. Jones > Big O. 10 > 6 > 1. 47 > 43. 142 > 131.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...304100BOS.html
Point being?
If Sam Jones is better than Oscar, he must logically be better than Jordan.
10 > 6!!!
So Sam Jones > Tim Duncan?10 > 6!!!
Truth.com
No Duncan > Jones. You must adjust for number of teams in league when doing this comparison. When Jones was in the league there were only 8 teams.
30 > 8.
And you don't have to do it when comparing jones and Jordan?
You are contradicting yourself like Kobe in front of cops.
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