NBA: The 10's: The age of passing

[ambchang]

Did I say passes don't enter the box score?

Assists happened by not passing?

"The offense is so sophisticated, and the passes are so effective, that they don't even show up in the box scores!"

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/me..._your_head.jpg

[ambchang]

How is that a counter? Players in the past can iso better, so they made more field goals in isolation plays.
Also, I was talkin purely on your denominator. The field goals made per season for top teams are consistently less than those by the average team. Does that mean top nba teams score less than the average?

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

[hyhy]

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

Well, assists can come from isolation plays, den passing out at the end.
What I was trying to say was that a higher assist to made field goals rate may not mean that there was better passing and ball movement, but that the isolation play finishing is bad in that era.

And you still haven answered the 2nd part of my question, which questions your statistics. Top teams had less total field goals made than the average team. why? I asked that twice and you conveniently ignored it.

[Raven]

Then why didn't teams in the 90s have less assists? More ISO plays = less assists? No?

Just contradiction of two facts, one must be wrong then.

are you dumb or something? if anything, from those stats you should have gotten the fact that assist is not a meaningful stat when it comes to ball movement .. kobe has plenty of assists and yet he is the most selfish and ballhogging player ever to play the game.. how come lol

[ambchang]

Well, assists can come from isolation plays, den passing out at the end.
What I was trying to say was that a higher assist to made field goals rate may not mean that there was better passing and ball movement, but that the isolation play finishing is bad in that era.

And wouldn't assists come from ball movement and finishing of play then? In an extreme situation, if a team scores every single point on ball movement, there should be 100% assists to FGM ratio because any points scored would have been a result of a pass that directly led to a score. While a team that scored every single point on isolation play would not have 100% assists to FGM ratio, because some points would be scored on iso kickouts, while others would be finished by the player on isolation play.

While pure iso ball does not mean a 0% assist to FGM ratio, it certainly would be less than 100%.

And you still haven answered the 2nd part of my question, which questions your statistics. Top teams had less total field goals made than the average team. why? I asked that twice and you conveniently ignored it.

Yes, it was answered:

Top team means top assists to FGM ratio because that's what we are talking about.

[Raven]

And wouldn't assists come from ball movement and finishing of play then? In an extreme situation, if a team scores every single point on ball movement, there should be 100% assists to FGM ratio because any points scored would have been a result of a pass that directly led to a score. While a team that scored every single point on isolation play would not have 100% assists to FGM ratio, because some points would be scored on iso kickouts, while others would be finished by the player on isolation play.

While pure iso ball does not mean a 0% assist to FGM ratio, it certainly would be less than 100%.



Yes, it was answered:

no.

[ambchang]

are you dumb or something? if anything, from those stats you should have gotten the fact that assist is not a meaningful stat when it comes to ball movement .. kobe has plenty of assists and yet he is the most selfish and ballhogging player ever to play the game.. how come lol

5 assist for a player with the four highest usage rate in NBA history is high?

You are also confusing the concept of team and individual statistics.

[ambchang]

no.

Yes. Show me a team scoring with ball movement but no assist.

[Raven]

Yes. Show me a team scoring with ball movement but no assist.

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

[ambchang]

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

You do know we are talking about assists to FGM ratio, right?

[Raven]

You do know we are talking about assists to FGM ratio, right?

have i not been clear enough, or what's wrong that you can't understand?

[ambchang]

have i not been clear enough, or what's wrong that you can't understand?

The idea you just had counts as an assists.

I apologize, I misread it as the shooter gets a FT.

FYI:

This is an assist

[Raven]

The idea you just had counts as an assists.

I apologize, I misread it as the shooter gets a FT.

FYI:

This is an assist

i gave you an example of terrific ball movement that in your statistic is not counted, since it's only one of the many, you can therefore assume that the whole theory is flawed. Is it more clear now?

[ambchang]

i gave you an example of terrific ball movement that in your statistic is not counted, since it's only one of the many, you can therefore assume that the whole theory is flawed. Is it more clear now?

No, your example would result in an assist and a score.

[Brazil]

dat Raven dude

[Thread]

pass, pass, pass, pass, open corner 3, defender jumps desperately to get the block, fouls the shooter/dribble and free jumper.

Sad, but true.

[ambchang]

Sad, but true.

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball...cle-18072.html

An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgement of the statistician, the last player's pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player's pass led to the field goal being made.

Too bad Thread, wrong again.

[Thread]

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball...cle-18072.html



Too bad Thread, wrong again.

Never disputed such.

[ElNono]

I don't get why assists would be a good metric for "ball movement", tbh... You can run a straight up ISO with a single kickout for a corner 3 and you're still running primarily an ISO offense with very little ball movement.

Same thing with a Stockton-Malone pick & roll (there will be an assist counted, but it's basically a two man game), or a Duncan 4-down that ends up with a kickout to Bowen in the corner.

Something like "passes per possession" would probably be a better metric.

[Raven]

http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball...cle-18072.html



Too bad Thread, wrong again.

you know that's not how it works most of the time, right?

[jag]

lol at the s who don't get the point of this thread.

Amchang makes a good point, but like Seventyniner said, I wonder how the numbers would look if they didn't gift away assists during Stockton's era. I don't think it would be a dramatic difference, but it would still alter the numbers.

[jag]

I also agree with what Nono said. Assist numbers are a flimsy way to try to explain the amount, or quality, of ball movement before the field goal.

[Killakobe81]

we seen players assists and it leads them nowhere. Great PG's and players move the ball without worry of who gets the assists. There are players that get mad at the extra pass because they dont get credit for "hockey assists". I made a point a while back that any focus on one stat shooting, rebounds or chucking for points is detrimental when you are doing it for individual glory over what is best for the team. Not passing ahead on a fast break so you can control the assist can be just as bad as chucking ...you are missing out on potential easy points.

[Killakobe81]

I also agree with what Nono said. Assist numbers are a flimsy way to try to explain the amount, or quality, of ball movement before the field goal.

Agreed. Kobe the other night played well and created plays but I still wouldnnt say that the Lakers ball movement was great. Better but assist numbers can be misleading.

[midnightpulp]

I don't get why assists would be a good metric for "ball movement", tbh... You can run a straight up ISO with a single kickout for a corner 3 and you're still running primarily an ISO offense with very little ball movement.

Same thing with a Stockton-Malone pick & roll (there will be an assist counted, but it's basically a two man game), or a Duncan 4-down that ends up with a kickout to Bowen in the corner.

Something like "passes per possession" would probably be a better metric.

It's not. The assist has been called the most overrated stat in basketball for a reason. Bird, for instance, was a far superior playmaker to John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, and other PGs not named Magic from that era, but you'd never know it if you judged them by their APG.

Assists are qualitative. One of those stats where "you need to watch the game" to determine if the player who recorded the assist actually contributed to the play or just dumped the ball off to an open shooter.