Pop landing a gutshot on Chinook...

[Brunodf]

Next chinnok is going to use plus/minus to show us bonner is the best spur in the team and denounce pop's comments of late
"Jeff McDonald: Asked Pop to explain Matt Bonner's NBA longevity (10-plus seasons): "There's always room for one lumberjack in the league. That's Matty." Twitter @JMcDonald_SAEN"

[wildchild]

You assume that Leonard is better at denying passes than Green is, to the extent that it makes up for all the quantifiable differences.

Well, I assume correctly based on observations of their games.

You act like I bash his defense. I don't. It's just not as good as people think it is. He has real problems that people ignore, and his working on them is critical to him.

Your words make my point. I say textually the same about Green.
If Danny works to balance his defense improving his off-ball defense he'll be the player that you think he is now.

But clearly Danny has such as high DRtg and DRAPM that he can't be the...

I can afford to let myself have doubts when my eyes see something that the stats don't.

Some of best defensive stat-hoarders can also be the worst defenders like I've said before about Harden.
And some of the best defenders give average stats.

That's why I don't preach about how to learn read stats, like you do.
If I have one piece of advice to offer others guys, I'd say...just watch the games. They'll develop their capacity for analysis only watching many games as possible.
Game plan/strategy/tactics adjustments, players evolving games, sometimes only can be noticed by a careful observer.

[mkurts]

I think Green and Leonard conpliment each other very well with different strengths. Can't really compare the two

[Kidd K]

Pop doesn't even say Green's a good shooter either. I've never seen a coach downplay a player this much. It's all well and good that it's part of his coaching psychology. But you have folks that take him at his word and think that Kawhi (and Klay) are better just because of reputation. Sucks that it's probably going to cost Green millions.

Green's having one of the best defensive seasons by a guard in history. Pop would be all over that if Leonard was doing it.

Yeah that's true. It's kind of ridiculous that Pop seems to almost never give him props when speaking to the media. I can't recall him constantly downplaying a player this much for like their entire career. He's downplayed Parker way back in the day when Parker was very young and unpolished but hasn't done it in years. This Green thing has been going on since day one. He's going to end up alienating him at this rate tbh.

It can only be said that it would cost Green millions if Green would have achieved what he has without Pop's psychology. Green, without Pop as a rudder, might be unlikely to be in a position to capitalize. Looking at Pop as a loose cannon that is costing Danny money is obfuscating the value Pop has added to Danny in the first place.

That's also true. That money issue's a bit clouded for that reason, but he would still be potentially costing Green a payday in the end if he keeps up with his comments. Green deserves some extra cash for those key playoff games he carried us in. We didn't win in 2013, but Danny Green sure as gave us a huge chance to do so with his record 3pt shooting.

[Chinook]

Well, I assume correctly based on observations of their games.

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying, "I think it because I think it." You assume Leonard is far superior in those areas, but you can provide no evidence of it. It doesn't have to be stats, but you literally bring nothing besides that statement, and it makes it hard to even discuss your opinion.

Your words make my point. I say textually the same about Green.
If Danny works to balance his defense improving his off-ball defense he'll be the player that you think he is now.

Also doesn't make sense. People don't have much to go on about Leonard's superiority besides their observations, which they can't explain past a gestalt level. Often, they misremember the events, hence people forgetting that Russ was held in check in Game Four until Pop pulled his starters. That's something that's very easy to see by watching Game Four again, but people refuse to do so.

Anyway, help defense and off-ball defense against shooters are not the same thing; in fact, they are the opposite of each other. There's little to be gained by confusing the two.

Some of best defensive stat-hoarders can also be the worst defenders like I've said before about Harden.

Harden's been much better on defense this season. Even gestalt folks can see that. He wasn't putting these kind of numbers up when he was playing awful defense. Boozer is a much better example of your point; however, he shows why DRtg and DWS are terrible stats, and since those are what people usually point to when giving Kawhi the edge, it gets ignored.

And some of the best defenders give average stats.

Eh, that's not really true. There were definitely stats that gave Bowen his due. It's just DRtg that didn't. DRAPM showed Bowen's worth, and it also bears out Green's consistent elite defensive impact. Are those stats perfect? Not at all. Does that mean they should be dismissed? No.

That's why I don't preach about how to learn read stats, like you do.

I talked about reading stats because SFnLA misread them while trying to make a rebuttal. It's kinda a big deal in that context.

If I have one piece of advice to offer others guys, I'd say...just watch the games. They'll develop their capacity for analysis only watching many games as possible.

No. That's always been a silly way to do it. People often don't understand what they watch, which is why avid fans can still be terrible students of the game. You'll never get to a point where stats are meaningless. They have their flaws, but they're not where you keep trying to put them. "Just watching games" leads to major confirmation bias, which you demonstrate by twisting any evidence to support your point and not providing any evidence of your own besides 'I know what I see.'

Game plan/strategy/tactics adjustments, players evolving games, sometimes only can be noticed by a careful observer.

None of that is unquantifiable. Stats can track all that, to an extent to where they can show the trends before the 'careful observer' notices. More importantly none of that absolves a person from having to provide support for their opinions if they want to use them in a discussion. It doesn't have to be numbers -- it often shouldn't be numbers. But it has to be something.

[Yuixafun]

I can kind of see the big picture.

Being somewhat talented and also a bit prideful person.

The lead chef at work keeps downplaying some of the things I do at work, but it's to keep me level headed as I improve steadily.

Also... it does piss you off feeling the lack of recognition, but that creates a spark... and coming into maturity, I see things more clear for what they are.

So they can downplay, but you know the truth is somewhere in between, you aren't as good as you are starting to believe, but you aren't nowhere near as ass as they make out.

As long as Danny has learned to handle that type of "encouragement" he will continue to blossom and discover more depth in what he does.


One would be wise not to take things personal or assume, always do your current best, and say exactly what you mean.

[wildchild]

That doesn't make sense. It's like saying, "I think it because I think it." You assume Leonard is far superior in those areas, but you can provide no evidence of it. It doesn't have to be stats, but you literally bring nothing besides that statement, and it makes it hard to even discuss your opinion.

I was talking about how great is Leonard's off ball defense a lot on ST.
Even posted some ESPN graphic in the finals, about how he constantly denied the ball and denied space.

Often, they misremember the events, hence people forgetting that Russ was held in check in Game Four until Pop pulled his starters. That's something that's very easy to see by watching Game Four again, but people refuse to do so.

Misremembering the events of WCF? Westbrook scored only 2 points in the paint in game 5 but you had obviously deduced that Leonard's defense had nothing to do with that (or just a little bit).

Harden's been much better on defense this season. Even gestalt folks can see that. He wasn't putting these kind of numbers up when he was playing awful defense.

Harden can play better defense but no enough to rank higher than the other defenders, this is what is wrong with the stats and the stat-hoarders.

Eh, that's not really true. There were definitely stats that gave Bowen his due. It's just DRtg that didn't. DRAPM showed Bowen's worth, and it also bears out Green's consistent elite defensive impact. Are those stats perfect? Not at all. Does that mean they should be dismissed? No

If stats aren't perfect you shouldn't act like they are.
Talking about "evidence" I prefer a video of some play or sequence of the game, than look stats saying just the opposite I watch.

If you think I say "I think it because I saw it", all I read of you is "I think it because the stats said it"...since observations aren't perfert and neither the stats are, one view shouldn't be more reliable than the other.

People often don't understand what they watch

Yeah...People are so incompetent.
People's knowledge and common sense have been systematically underrated.
In fact, those elitist sports comments are as old as arguments to prevent some people to vote...after all people often don't understand what happens.

[james evans]

At least Danny's off ball defense is better than Gary Neal's

other than tony parker and steve nash, what defense isn't?

[spursparker9]

other than tony parker and steve nash, what defense isn't?

Kobe with his "roaming" to help-team-defense.