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But--but that waterboarding was different!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-b..._b_191153.htmlOn November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."
Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:
"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging do ents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."
But--but that waterboarding was different!
because doctors were present to make sure the people we were torturing didn't die from it. odd thing for a doctor to be doing...
And they had a plan in place if the detainee died to burn the evidence. Odd contingency for such a safe practice.
didn't one of the interrogation subjects did die? maybe it was Dr. Seuss watching over det one...
Air conditioning isn't torture! I have it in my house!
Sorry, Paul Begala -- You’re Still Wrong
Not that y'all ever bother with distinctions...Over at Huffington Post, Paul Begala has responded to my post from a few days ago questioning his claim the the U.S. executed Japanese war criminals for waterboarding — “Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding.“
Given that a number of the responses I’ve received have been less than fair, Begala’s response is a model of civilized debate and I appreciate that he mounted a factual response.
Alas, he’s still wrong.
But first, a necessary clarification. I had assumed that Begala had sourced his claim that the U.S. executed Japanese war criminals to Ted Kennedy, since that was the only popular mention I could find of someone citing a Japanese war criminal by name being punished for the specific crime of waterboarding. Begala says that his claim stems from this statement from John McCain:
What McCain is saying is accurate. However, McCain’s third sentence here doesn’t necessarily follow the second. Japanese war criminals were convicted for crimes against U.S. POWs — including waterboarding. But, unlike Begala, McCain doesn’t go so far as to say they were executed for waterboarding. Here’s what Begala actually said:
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale.
Koki Hirota:
Seishiro Itagaki:During Hirota’s second tenure as foreign minister, late in 1937, Japanese forces marched into Nanking. Thousands of innocent civilians were buried alive, used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into the Yangtze River. Rampant rapes (and gang rapes) of women ranging from age seven to over seventy were reported. The international community estimated that within the six weeks of the Massacre, 20,000 women were raped, many of them subsequently murdered or mutilated; and over 300,000 people were killed, often with the most inhumane brutality.
While Hirota was not in charge of the army units that invaded Nanjing, he was well informed about the massacre. The international community had filed many protests to the Japanese Embassy. Bates, an American professor of history at the University of Nanking during the Japanese occupation, provided evidence that the protests were forwarded to Tokyo and were discussed in great detail between Japanese officials and the U.S. ambassador in Tokyo.
Kenji Dohihara:Itagaki was moreover responsible for the supply of food and medical care to prisoners of war and civilian internees, in particular on various Indonesian islands during the last months of the war. It has been established that, over that period, thousands of people died due to lack of food or adequate care, while the camp guards suffered no undue hardship.
Heitaro Kimura:Kenji Dohihara voted in favour of the attack on Pearl Harbour … He commanded the Army of the 7th Region, which includes parts of Malaysia and the islands of Sumatra, Java and Borneo in Indonesia. In this capacity, he was responsible for supplying food and medicines to not only the Japanese troops, but also to prisoners of war.
Iwane Matsui:It is alleged that in carrying out his functions, Kimura allegedly violated the laws and customs of war in approving the use of prisoners of war for hazardous work, from which they are usually prohibited. They were forced to work in very dangerous conditions and several thousands died. Heitaro Kimura allegedly gave the order and approved the use of prisoners of war for the construction of the railway between Burma and the Kingdom of Siam (now Thailand). In addition, he did not take the necessary disciplinary measures to prevent or to punish the commission of atrocities by his troops.
Akira Muto:His troops took Nanking on 13 December 1937. The Chinese army had evacuated the city just before it was taken. The ensuing occupation was therefore that of a defenceless city. The Japanese troops nevertheless carried out unspeakable atrocities: massacre, rape, pillaging and destruction were routinely committed. During a six to seven week period, more than 100’000 civilians were killed and thousands of women raped. Against this backdrop, Matsui marched triumphantly into Nanking on 17 December 1937 and remained there for several days.
The seventh Japanese war criminal to be hanged was Hideki Tojo, and I presume his reputation precedes him. But it seems pretty clear we executed these men for charges that far surpass concerns about waterboarding.Moreover, as an officer serving under General Matsui between November 1937 and July 1938, he was charged with war crimes for his participation in the atrocities committed at Nanking.
Now it does appear that various forms of torture were a consideration in some of these cases that resulted in death sentences at the Tokyo Trials. Media Matters marshals some evidence to that effect, but again waterboarding was presented as just one of several types of torture, many of which appear to be more severe. (Media Matters also appears to cavalierly lump all forms of Japanese water torture together and, say, forced ingestion of water — an execution method centuries ago — is obviously very different from waterboarding.) This is why McCain appears to be accurate when he says waterboarding is “among the charges” and Begala is wrong to suggest it’s the reason why the death sentences were handed down. There are examples of war criminals convicted of waterboarding, even alongside convictions for a number of harsh forms of torture, who were not put to death.
In no way, shape or form could waterboarding be said to have been the predominate reason any one of these people were hanged. Begala suggesting people at the Tokyo Trials were hanged for waterboarding is akin to noting that Charles Manson is guilty of trespassing on Roman Polanski’s home and then insisting that’s the reason he got a death sentence. (Not that I’m suggesting trespassing and waterboarding are equivalent crimes; I’m just making a logical point.)
Ultimately, even evidence Begala cites to defend himself doesn’t validate his charge. It does validate McCain’s statement, which Begala doesn’t seem to recognize as materially different the one he made. Then again, while the PolitiFact article Begala references doesn’t prove his claim — it’s otherwise clear as mud on the distinctions and specific crimes involved.
Again, to be clear: I am not trying to suggest that waterboarding isn’t torture. Those opposed to waterboarding should be content to argue the indisputable fact that it was considered a crime as practiced by the Japanese. But Begala’s insistence that Japanese war criminals were executed for waterboarding just does not appear to be true.
Now shifting gears a bit, let me add one final bit about waterboarding. In my discussion of waterboarding from a few days ago, I wrote:
A reader notes that a cloth barrier, doesn’t necessarily prevent water from going into the mouth and nose as described in the Stephen J. Bradbury memo:
Obviously, a cellophane barrier would keep water out altogether and I think a cloth barrier is probably still better than none. But the reader makes a fair point about a cloth not necessarily keeping water out of the nose and mouth, and is certainly a distinction worth noting if you’re trying to decide how severe the practice is.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it was.
^appeal to emotion
So classy.
Bumping thread back up because the National Review response to Begala seemed to slow down the discourse.
So, National Review puts the lie to Begala's misquoting of John McCain and then, further explains how no Japanese were executed for waterboarding. Rounds it out by, once again, trying to enlighten the unenlightenable by stating what the vast majority of sentient human beings already know; that the water torture used by the Japanese (while sometimes called waterboarding - among other things) was not the same as the enhanced interrogation technique described and approved by the DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel.
No response? Or, are you going to wait for Paul Begala to take another stab at it?
'They did it first' is the justification of a child.
Hand waving at the red herring is a nice touch.
But, they didn't do it first. They murdered 3,000 people and were planning a second wave of attacks to do it all over again.
You missed the point of the cartoon. But it was only a bumping mechanism to try and get a response to the National Review response to Paul Begala.
What red herring? The National Review article specifically responded to the Huffington Post article Winehole posted.
They were certainly prosecuted for "enhanced" type waterboarding, as have been Americans.
No one else needs to take a stab at it. Unlike you, I can speak for myself.
You're right, you can speak for yourself. A distinct minority.
Actually the case law speaks for itself. Americans and foreigners have been prosecuted for your kinder, gentler waterboarding. And you can't spin it away.
Except they haven't.
Of course they have.
Sorry, Paul Begala -- You’re Still Wrong
Not that y'all ever bother with distinctions...Over at Huffington Post, Paul Begala has responded to my post from a few days ago questioning his claim the the U.S. executed Japanese war criminals for waterboarding — “Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding.“
Given that a number of the responses I’ve received have been less than fair, Begala’s response is a model of civilized debate and I appreciate that he mounted a factual response.
Alas, he’s still wrong.
But first, a necessary clarification. I had assumed that Begala had sourced his claim that the U.S. executed Japanese war criminals to Ted Kennedy, since that was the only popular mention I could find of someone citing a Japanese war criminal by name being punished for the specific crime of waterboarding. Begala says that his claim stems from this statement from John McCain:
What McCain is saying is accurate. However, McCain’s third sentence here doesn’t necessarily follow the second. Japanese war criminals were convicted for crimes against U.S. POWs — including waterboarding. But, unlike Begala, McCain doesn’t go so far as to say they were executed for waterboarding. Here’s what Begala actually said:
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale.
Koki Hirota:
Seishiro Itagaki:During Hirota’s second tenure as foreign minister, late in 1937, Japanese forces marched into Nanking. Thousands of innocent civilians were buried alive, used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into the Yangtze River. Rampant rapes (and gang rapes) of women ranging from age seven to over seventy were reported. The international community estimated that within the six weeks of the Massacre, 20,000 women were raped, many of them subsequently murdered or mutilated; and over 300,000 people were killed, often with the most inhumane brutality.
While Hirota was not in charge of the army units that invaded Nanjing, he was well informed about the massacre. The international community had filed many protests to the Japanese Embassy. Bates, an American professor of history at the University of Nanking during the Japanese occupation, provided evidence that the protests were forwarded to Tokyo and were discussed in great detail between Japanese officials and the U.S. ambassador in Tokyo.
Kenji Dohihara:Itagaki was moreover responsible for the supply of food and medical care to prisoners of war and civilian internees, in particular on various Indonesian islands during the last months of the war. It has been established that, over that period, thousands of people died due to lack of food or adequate care, while the camp guards suffered no undue hardship.
Heitaro Kimura:Kenji Dohihara voted in favour of the attack on Pearl Harbour … He commanded the Army of the 7th Region, which includes parts of Malaysia and the islands of Sumatra, Java and Borneo in Indonesia. In this capacity, he was responsible for supplying food and medicines to not only the Japanese troops, but also to prisoners of war.
Iwane Matsui:It is alleged that in carrying out his functions, Kimura allegedly violated the laws and customs of war in approving the use of prisoners of war for hazardous work, from which they are usually prohibited. They were forced to work in very dangerous conditions and several thousands died. Heitaro Kimura allegedly gave the order and approved the use of prisoners of war for the construction of the railway between Burma and the Kingdom of Siam (now Thailand). In addition, he did not take the necessary disciplinary measures to prevent or to punish the commission of atrocities by his troops.
Akira Muto:His troops took Nanking on 13 December 1937. The Chinese army had evacuated the city just before it was taken. The ensuing occupation was therefore that of a defenceless city. The Japanese troops nevertheless carried out unspeakable atrocities: massacre, rape, pillaging and destruction were routinely committed. During a six to seven week period, more than 100’000 civilians were killed and thousands of women raped. Against this backdrop, Matsui marched triumphantly into Nanking on 17 December 1937 and remained there for several days.
The seventh Japanese war criminal to be hanged was Hideki Tojo, and I presume his reputation precedes him. But it seems pretty clear we executed these men for charges that far surpass concerns about waterboarding.Moreover, as an officer serving under General Matsui between November 1937 and July 1938, he was charged with war crimes for his participation in the atrocities committed at Nanking.
Now it does appear that various forms of torture were a consideration in some of these cases that resulted in death sentences at the Tokyo Trials. Media Matters marshals some evidence to that effect, but again waterboarding was presented as just one of several types of torture, many of which appear to be more severe. (Media Matters also appears to cavalierly lump all forms of Japanese water torture together and, say, forced ingestion of water — an execution method centuries ago — is obviously very different from waterboarding.) This is why McCain appears to be accurate when he says waterboarding is “among the charges” and Begala is wrong to suggest it’s the reason why the death sentences were handed down. There are examples of war criminals convicted of waterboarding, even alongside convictions for a number of harsh forms of torture, who were not put to death.
In no way, shape or form could waterboarding be said to have been the predominate reason any one of these people were hanged. Begala suggesting people at the Tokyo Trials were hanged for waterboarding is akin to noting that Charles Manson is guilty of trespassing on Roman Polanski’s home and then insisting that’s the reason he got a death sentence. (Not that I’m suggesting trespassing and waterboarding are equivalent crimes; I’m just making a logical point.)
Ultimately, even evidence Begala cites to defend himself doesn’t validate his charge. It does validate McCain’s statement, which Begala doesn’t seem to recognize as materially different the one he made. Then again, while the PolitiFact article Begala references doesn’t prove his claim — it’s otherwise clear as mud on the distinctions and specific crimes involved.
Again, to be clear: I am not trying to suggest that waterboarding isn’t torture. Those opposed to waterboarding should be content to argue the indisputable fact that it was considered a crime as practiced by the Japanese. But Begala’s insistence that Japanese war criminals were executed for waterboarding just does not appear to be true.
Now shifting gears a bit, let me add one final bit about waterboarding. In my discussion of waterboarding from a few days ago, I wrote:
A reader notes that a cloth barrier, doesn’t necessarily prevent water from going into the mouth and nose as described in the Stephen J. Bradbury memo:
Obviously, a cellophane barrier would keep water out altogether and I think a cloth barrier is probably still better than none. But the reader makes a fair point about a cloth not necessarily keeping water out of the nose and mouth, and is certainly a distinction worth noting if you’re trying to decide how severe the practice is.
Megyn Kelly interviews Dr. James Mitc , one of the men who developed the Enhanced Interrogation Tecnhiques and applied them to terrorist detainees.
I think the last segment is the most relevent to our discussion but, the whole interview is interesting. I don't particularly like Kelly's interview style - she interrupts too much.
IIRC, Dr. Mitc said he was talking now after a gag order had been loosened over the weekend.
A few quotables:
For the anti-waterboarders in here, he did say he didn't think waterboarding was particularly effective on Khalid Sheik Mohammed. KSM was not affected by the technique and would count down on his fingers the number of seconds left in a pour. Yeah, he was really being tortured! Dr. Mitc did allow that KSM was more compliant after other EITs were employed.“I do not mind giving my life for my country, but I do mind giving my life for a food fight for political reasons between two groups of people who should be able to work it out like adults.”
“Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has the opportunity to address the charges against him, but I don’t.”
“[The Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats' report] shows al Qaeda and the al Qaeda 2.0 folks, ISIL, that we’re divided and that we’re easy targets, that we don’t have the will to defeat them because that’s what they know. In fact, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed told me personally, ‘Your country will turn on you, the liberal media will turn on you, the people will grow tired of this, they will turn on you, and when they do, you are going to be abandoned.”
Also of interest:
James Mitc , CIA's "Torture Teacher" Hits Back
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